Comments on: Mirrorless, Mirrorless on the Wall . . . Part I http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/mirrorless-mirrorless-on-the-wall-part-i Photo/video thoughts from the largest rental house Fri, 24 May 2013 06:59:51 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Richard http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/mirrorless-mirrorless-on-the-wall-part-i/comment-page-1#comment-17551 Richard Tue, 11 Sep 2012 11:46:33 +0000 http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/?p=8249#comment-17551 As usual a very insightful article, and I'd echo that for Chris J's contributions. In my own case I gave up bulky film SLRs many years ago as they were impractical for use when skiing etc, and switched to competent 35mm compacts from the likes of Olympus. The world was a happy place and I got some nice pictures. When digital came along I switched to digital compacts - the initial ones being very dissapointing but later ones (from Canon) fine. But the photography bug bit again so I looked at something with more capability than a p&s. The mirrorless cams looked ideal on the face of it but I realised that (a) many were using sensors that still didn't really give any dof control (b) despite being considerably bigger than my p&s sensors their sensors were producing extremely dissapointing results from what I could see in review shots (c) those sensors also seemed to have poor high ISO performancefor their size (d) the bodies were designed for non-photographers and did not give me what I wanted at all. OK perhaps I'm mistaken in (b) and (c) not having owned one. Certainly I couldn't understand why they should be so. All this is in addition to defeating-the-object-by-sticking-a-huge-lens-on-the-front and other issues as you quite rightly point out. So the mirrorless makers missed some huge opportunities in my book. I bought a DX SLR as I saw that as the only feasible option that met my requirements of a photographer-centric design of moderate weight and size with good IQ. Only in recent months have models come out that answer these issues, especially (d): when they could have made those designs from day one. Just my take. As usual a very insightful article, and I’d echo that for Chris J’s contributions. In my own case I gave up bulky film SLRs many years ago as they were impractical for use when skiing etc, and switched to competent 35mm compacts from the likes of Olympus. The world was a happy place and I got some nice pictures. When digital came along I switched to digital compacts – the initial ones being very dissapointing but later ones (from Canon) fine. But the photography bug bit again so I looked at something with more capability than a p&s. The mirrorless cams looked ideal on the face of it but I realised that (a) many were using sensors that still didn’t really give any dof control (b) despite being considerably bigger than my p&s sensors their sensors were producing extremely dissapointing results from what I could see in review shots (c) those sensors also seemed to have poor high ISO performancefor their size (d) the bodies were designed for non-photographers and did not give me what I wanted at all. OK perhaps I’m mistaken in (b) and (c) not having owned one. Certainly I couldn’t understand why they should be so. All this is in addition to defeating-the-object-by-sticking-a-huge-lens-on-the-front and other issues as you quite rightly point out. So the mirrorless makers missed some huge opportunities in my book. I bought a DX SLR as I saw that as the only feasible option that met my requirements of a photographer-centric design of moderate weight and size with good IQ. Only in recent months have models come out that answer these issues, especially (d): when they could have made those designs from day one. Just my take.

]]> By: Chris Jankowski http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/mirrorless-mirrorless-on-the-wall-part-i/comment-page-1#comment-17520 Chris Jankowski Mon, 10 Sep 2012 04:07:21 +0000 http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/?p=8249#comment-17520 Another comment on the just to be announced Sony full frame mirrorless camera - RX1. Sony was able to come up with it, as they do not have much market in frame DSLRs (none, in fact, after A900/A850 retirement and before the SLT A99), small market share in the DSLRs, but they have an excellent, new 24 Mpixels full frame sensor. And they could share the sensor and great majority of electronics and firmware between A99 and RX1. They will even be priced similarly - A99 body price is to equal the RX1 price apparently. Another comment on the just to be announced Sony full frame mirrorless camera – RX1. Sony was able to come up with it, as they do not have much market in frame DSLRs (none, in fact, after A900/A850 retirement and before the SLT A99), small market share in the DSLRs, but they have an excellent, new 24 Mpixels full frame sensor. And they could share the sensor and great majority of electronics and firmware between A99 and RX1. They will even be priced similarly – A99 body price is to equal the RX1 price apparently.

]]> By: Chris Jankowski http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/mirrorless-mirrorless-on-the-wall-part-i/comment-page-1#comment-17518 Chris Jankowski Mon, 10 Sep 2012 03:24:44 +0000 http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/?p=8249#comment-17518 I'd say that my prediction from my comment here on 24th of August has been realised. Sony is apparently just about to announce a *full frame* mirrorless camera, albeit with fixed Zeiss 35/2 lens. Tiny body. Details have been leaked at www.sonyalpharumors.com. The whole concept has enormous similarity to the Rollei 35 S - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollei_35S - from early 1970s which I mentioned in my posting. I'd guess that the camera may be a great hit with street photographers. The initial price is to be stratospherically high - $2,800. I'll make another prediction here - there is nothing really stopping the price of this type of camera to come down to about $500 in a few years, perhaps with a cheaper lens - F2.8. I'll buy one then (:-)). I’d say that my prediction from my comment here on 24th of August has been realised. Sony is apparently just about to announce a *full frame* mirrorless camera, albeit with fixed Zeiss 35/2 lens. Tiny body. Details have been leaked at http://www.sonyalpharumors.com. The whole concept has enormous similarity to the Rollei 35 S – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollei_35S – from early 1970s which I mentioned in my posting. I’d guess that the camera may be a great hit with street photographers. The initial price is to be stratospherically high – $2,800. I’ll make another prediction here – there is nothing really stopping the price of this type of camera to come down to about $500 in a few years, perhaps with a cheaper lens – F2.8. I’ll buy one then (:-)).

]]> By: Bruce http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/mirrorless-mirrorless-on-the-wall-part-i/comment-page-1#comment-17245 Bruce Wed, 29 Aug 2012 12:57:50 +0000 http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/?p=8249#comment-17245 With regard to the Rollei 35 S approach(actually I was a Leica Minilux fan)I got tired of waiting and finally bought the new Nikon 28mm 1.8 and a D3200 for that 40mm-equivalent mindset. Not "pocketable" but eminently portable, and compatible with the rest of my Nikon stuff. I have a Canon S100 for the shirt pocket. Best of both worlds IMHO, and thus no incentive to switch to mirrorless until systems sort out and prices are more reasonable. With regard to the Rollei 35 S approach(actually I was a Leica Minilux fan)I got tired of waiting and finally bought the new Nikon 28mm 1.8 and a D3200 for that 40mm-equivalent mindset. Not “pocketable” but eminently portable, and compatible with the rest of my Nikon stuff. I have a Canon S100 for the shirt pocket. Best of both worlds IMHO, and thus no incentive to switch to mirrorless until systems sort out and prices are more reasonable.

]]> By: robert cook http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/mirrorless-mirrorless-on-the-wall-part-i/comment-page-1#comment-17217 robert cook Tue, 28 Aug 2012 01:37:29 +0000 http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/?p=8249#comment-17217 Rodger your articles are the BEST !! Thank you !! Your on top of what is going on. More so than some of the can not perform camera companies, where we get to be the beta tester. I have a hard time with ,, just buy the new camera with an x on it,,, only cost 7 grand, and you only get a whopping three second burst in raw. Thats ok for 7 grand right?? Or the new version 3 does not auto focus track in video,, but our cheep t body does! Thank goodness for Nikon and Sony. Rodger your articles are the BEST !! Thank you !! Your on top of what is going on. More so than some of the can not perform camera companies, where we get to be the beta tester. I have a hard time with ,, just buy the new camera with an x on it,,, only cost 7 grand, and you only get a whopping three second burst in raw. Thats ok for 7 grand right?? Or the new version 3 does not auto focus track in video,, but our cheep t body does! Thank goodness for Nikon and Sony.

]]> By: Esa Tuunanen http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/mirrorless-mirrorless-on-the-wall-part-i/comment-page-1#comment-17206 Esa Tuunanen Mon, 27 Aug 2012 12:22:59 +0000 http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/?p=8249#comment-17206 Economics wise appearance of mirrorless definitely hit bad time considering both budgets of camera makers and buyers. So that factor can't be downplayed. Then there's religiousness of consumers with Canon and Nikon being the big holy names putting smaller brands into harder selling position even if their product would fit better into buyers needs. Because thinking is such inconceivably hard work for advertising brainwashed average consumers they don't buy product but mental image. But there's also other reason why they haven't been replacing DSLRs: Ergonomics Any entry level DSLR gives more comfortable hold than any of the mirrorless cameras. Every camera is always compromise between various factors and mirrorless just has gone all out on downsizing while human hand size hasn't shrinked any. Instead of being truely Digital Single Lens Mirrorless alternative for DSLR they suffer from CSC syndrome. In fact best fixed lens bridge/prosumer digicams from time before cheap DSLRs have better controls and ergonomics than any current mirrorless body which underlines the problem! While small size has brought new buyers from those willing to compromise controls and ergonomics for higher portability that strategy has major long term problems: While mirrorless bodies can be lot smaller than DSLR with lens they're still bigger than fixed lens compacts and also cellphones are attacking that carry always with you camera segment. Mirrorless enables very wide diversity inside single internally compatible system from compact P&S bodies and lenses to full controls and ergonomics bodies with fast high quality lenses. When that happens DSLR doesn't have anymore big place to exist. Development of on sensor PDAF could eventually negate any focus tracking advantage of SLR. Current SLR PDAF is result of some 30 years of R&D and that knowledge has to be now applied in new way. As for live view image lag advance in electronics can decrease that and mirrorless cameras could evolve to include mode in which camera starts buffering images (say last half second worth of continuous shooting) when you half press shutter and then also save those when you fully press shutter. Economics wise appearance of mirrorless definitely hit bad time considering both budgets of camera makers and buyers. So that factor can’t be downplayed.
Then there’s religiousness of consumers with Canon and Nikon being the big holy names putting smaller brands into harder selling position even if their product would fit better into buyers needs. Because thinking is such inconceivably hard work for advertising brainwashed average consumers they don’t buy product but mental image.

But there’s also other reason why they haven’t been replacing DSLRs: Ergonomics
Any entry level DSLR gives more comfortable hold than any of the mirrorless cameras.
Every camera is always compromise between various factors and mirrorless just has gone all out on downsizing while human hand size hasn’t shrinked any.
Instead of being truely Digital Single Lens Mirrorless alternative for DSLR they suffer from CSC syndrome.
In fact best fixed lens bridge/prosumer digicams from time before cheap DSLRs have better controls and ergonomics than any current mirrorless body which underlines the problem!

While small size has brought new buyers from those willing to compromise controls and ergonomics for higher portability that strategy has major long term problems:
While mirrorless bodies can be lot smaller than DSLR with lens they’re still bigger than fixed lens compacts and also cellphones are attacking that carry always with you camera segment.

Mirrorless enables very wide diversity inside single internally compatible system from compact P&S bodies and lenses to full controls and ergonomics bodies with fast high quality lenses.
When that happens DSLR doesn’t have anymore big place to exist.

Development of on sensor PDAF could eventually negate any focus tracking advantage of SLR. Current SLR PDAF is result of some 30 years of R&D and that knowledge has to be now applied in new way.
As for live view image lag advance in electronics can decrease that and mirrorless cameras could evolve to include mode in which camera starts buffering images (say last half second worth of continuous shooting) when you half press shutter and then also save those when you fully press shutter.

]]> By: Rick Stocker http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/mirrorless-mirrorless-on-the-wall-part-i/comment-page-1#comment-17177 Rick Stocker Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:26:48 +0000 http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/?p=8249#comment-17177 As a non-statistically valid sample of one, I can say the Olympus-D and micro4/3 lenses have made photography fun again. The Oly body is just right, neither too big or small, the viewfinder fine, the lenses sharp enough for photos viewed on a laptop screen, and the camera plus five lenses from the 8mm to the 100-300mm small enough and light enough to be carried comfortably. My only question is what would be the specifications of a native micro4/3 lens appropriate for a safari? As a non-statistically valid sample of one, I can say the Olympus-D and micro4/3 lenses have made photography fun again. The Oly body is just right, neither too big or small, the viewfinder fine, the lenses sharp enough for photos viewed on a laptop screen, and the camera plus five lenses from the 8mm to the 100-300mm small enough and light enough to be carried comfortably.

My only question is what would be the specifications of a native micro4/3 lens appropriate for a safari?

]]> By: Roger Cicala http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/mirrorless-mirrorless-on-the-wall-part-i/comment-page-1#comment-17138 Roger Cicala Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:05:43 +0000 http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/?p=8249#comment-17138 A good point, Chris. But the U. S. photographers, at least, were mostly using Speed Graphics I think. A good point, Chris. But the U. S. photographers, at least, were mostly using Speed Graphics I think.

]]> By: Chris Jankowski http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/mirrorless-mirrorless-on-the-wall-part-i/comment-page-1#comment-17136 Chris Jankowski Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:01:55 +0000 http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/?p=8249#comment-17136 The phase detection focus is migrating from specialised sensor to the main sensor. Once this is reasonably mature then a mixed system might emerge that will use phase detection focus for fast initial focusing and contrast detection for the final adjustment. This will eliminate the need for flapping or transluscent mirror. What will remain will be the issue of user preference for EVF (mirrorless) vs OVF (DSLR) and also optics. There is absolutely no reason why the excellent concept of a tiny film camera with high quality lens such as Rollei 35 S may not resurface as a tiny digital camera with large sensor and high quality collapsiple lens. All this space previously taken by film cassette, winder, take up spool may now be allocated to EVF and electronics. The quality of photos will be limited only by the quality of the lens. Such camera would rely on cropping for magnification. But you really can take it anywhere. I loved my Rollei 35 S. The phase detection focus is migrating from specialised sensor to the main sensor. Once this is reasonably mature then a mixed system might emerge that will use phase detection focus for fast initial focusing and contrast detection for the final adjustment. This will eliminate the need for flapping or transluscent mirror. What will remain will be the issue of user preference for EVF (mirrorless) vs OVF (DSLR) and also optics. There is absolutely no reason why the excellent concept of a tiny film camera with high quality lens such as Rollei 35 S may not resurface as a tiny digital camera with large sensor and high quality collapsiple lens. All this space previously taken by film cassette, winder, take up spool may now be allocated to EVF and electronics. The quality of photos will be limited only by the quality of the lens. Such camera would rely on cropping for magnification. But you really can take it anywhere. I loved my Rollei 35 S.

]]> By: Chris Jankowski http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/mirrorless-mirrorless-on-the-wall-part-i/comment-page-1#comment-17135 Chris Jankowski Fri, 24 Aug 2012 12:18:19 +0000 http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/?p=8249#comment-17135 Roger, To be pedantic, asmall correction. The first eye level finder for Exakta (aka Exacta in US) was not developed until 1950. This is why nearly all photoreporters during WWII used Leica or Leica copies. It is kind of diffult to take war pictures keeping your camera at waist level. Roger,
To be pedantic, asmall correction. The first eye level finder for Exakta (aka Exacta in US) was not developed until 1950. This is why nearly all photoreporters during WWII used Leica or Leica copies. It is kind of diffult to take war pictures keeping your camera at waist level.

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