“D” resolution tests
It’s been kind of an exciting couple of weeks, with 3 major new SLRs released and a couple of more on the way. There are plenty of people out there who are doing in-depth reviews, touting the greatness of the new cameras, and trashing them online without having touched one (My favorite so far is the guy who, after looking at online jpgs, stated it was obvious that the 5D Mk III and D800 weren’t a bit better than his T2i, so he wouldn’t be upgrading). I don’t have much to say regarding image noise, ergonomics, autofocus accuracy, image processing, etc. There are plenty of people doing that more thoroughly and accurately than I could.
But there was one question that was really eating my lunch and I was in a position to take a look at it: just how much better would the Nikon D800, with that gazillion megapixels, really resolve? Would it be 3 times better than a D700, and 50% better than a Canon 5D Mk III, which the pixel count would suggest? Would the lenses we have really be able to take advantage of that resolution? I wasn’t sure.
So when we got a bunch of Canon 5D Mk III’s and a few Nikon D800s in last week and I was able to divert a few over to our Imatest lab for a few hours. There wasn’t enough time to do exhaustive testing (generally the cameras arrived at 10 a.m. and had to be in packing to ship out by 3 p.m.) but I was able to get enough done to make some preliminary observations.
Comparing Camera Resolution
I arbitrarily chose two lenses to do the camera comparisons: the Zeiss 100 f/2 Makro Planar and Zeiss 25mm f/2.0. I chose Zeiss lenses because it let us put identical lenses in front of both Canon and Nikon cameras. These two particular lenses because both are exceptionally high resolution lenses and I wanted to be able to test at two different focusing distances, since that could make some difference. The copies used for this test had previously been tested and were known to be excellent and free of optical issues.
We tested each on D800, 5D Mk II, and 5D Mk III cameras (and one run on a D700 just for comparison). Otherwise things were kept as equal as we could make them: lighting and setups weren’t changed, etc. Time constraints prevented doing what I would have loved to do: testing a half-dozen copies of each lens on a half dozen copies of each body. But this should be fairly accurate.
I should note that we initially ran the Canon files through DPP to convert the raw images, since Imatest can’t directly convert the 5D Mk III files yet, but the results we got showed DPP was obviously doing some manipulation to the files as it converted them, making the results invalid for comparison since we test on unsharpened raw images. We then used Adobe’s DNG converter which handled the files with no problems and didn’t manipulate them at all, so we used RAW-to-DNG conversions for all the cameras to make sure things were equal.
The Zeiss 100 results first. The Vertical axis is the peak (center) MTF 50 (in line pairs / image height), the Horizontal axis aperture, and the cameras identified in the legend. The D700 and 5D Mk II results agree exactly with what we’ve seen testing these combinations for several months.

Results with the Zeiss 25mm f/2.0 lens were very similar. I left off the D700 after the first test. I saw no sense beating a dead horse and, as I mentioned, time was short.

The results certainly weren’t surprising: I expected the 5D III to be a bit better than the II and it was. I expected the D800 to be better than any 35mm camera we’d tested, and it was. Previous, only the Leica M9, with its no-AA-filter, CCD-sensor, using the $6,000 Leica 50mm f/1.4 Summilux lens and gets up in this range among 35mm cameras. For the couple of people, though, that seem to think the D800 is a medium format camera in 35mm clothing, I would point out that a Hasselblad H4D-50 with kit lens tests out at about 1,600 lp/ih, so no, we’re not quite there yet.
At Higher ISO
The above results are taken at ISO 200 which should theoretically giving best, or near-best, performance for each camera. I was curious how the D800’s resolution would hold up at higher ISOs so I repeated the ZF 25mm on D800 series at ISO 400 (where I do most of my shooting – it’s my test after all) and also at ISO 1600 and ISO 3200.

Again, this is done from raw images with no (as best I can determine) post image sharpening, although you can never be sure what is happening in-camera. But at any rate, there really is an amazingly small amount of resolution fall off at reasonably high ISOs. I was really surprised at this, especially at how well 3200 compared to 1600. Obviously I should have gone further, and need to do the same comparisons for the 5DIII, which I should get to next week.
What About Lenses?
Ah, now that is the question. At least it’s the question now. Lloyd Chambers had already mad some good suggestions for Zeiss and Nikon lenses that should be able to handle the D800’s resolution based on his experience. I’m not sure I agree with all of them, but it’s certainly the best starting list. I plan on testing each lens on the D800 and getting a list of our own together, but I was able to get some of the usual players tested before the last D800 left the shop.
The first graph plots peak (center) MTF 50 comparing the ZF 25, Nikon 24 f/1.4G, Nikon 14-24 f/2.8, and Nikon 70-200 f2.8 VR II. There’s a pretty significant difference between the primes and zooms at f/2.8. It’s not surprising, since the zooms are wide open there, but I thought the point was worth making: if you want best resolution with the D800, shooting at f/4 or f/5.6 is going to be necessary with most lenses.

The second plots average resolution of the center, halfway to the corners, and corner MTF 50. It becomes apparent that center resolution doesn’t mean corner resolution: the 70-200 VR II does much better in the corners than the 24 f/1.4. The Zeiss 25mm does superbly well, but I should point out that this lens seems to do it’s best work at close and medium distances (like where it is when we do Imatesting) and may not be as good at infinity.

Obviously, there are a lot more lenses that we’ll need to test just to make recommendations based on resolution. The only message I think to take away right now is that the D800 is playing up in the range of maximum resolution of even the best lenses. Putting anything less in front of it is going to limit the camera.
Conclusion:
For the fanboys who don’t like the results: This concludes our test of the Emergency Resolution Testing Service. This was only a test. If this had been an actual Fanboy emergency you would have been instructed where to tune in your area for official Fanboy disinformation and complete manufacturer sponsored reviews.
For everyone else, there’s no question the D800 can actually get those pixels to show up in the final product (assuming your final product is a big print – they’re going to be wasted posting on your Facebook page). But you’d better have some really good glass in front of it if you want to demonstrate all of that resolution.
In the real world, highest possible resolution is nice to know about and talk about, but usually not of critical importance compared to other factors. You’ll be able to make superb images with any decent lens for an 8 X 10 or even 11 X 16 print. But if you’re getting the camera because of the resolution, it makes sense to know which lenses will allow all of that resolution to be utilized. Just in case you get that job that needs billboard sized prints.
Roger Cicala
Lensrentals.com
March, 2012
75 Comments
Werner Orwat ·
Don’t forget: the D800 has an AAA-filter, the Hasselblad has none.
Dan Dill ·
Roughly, do the D800/5D3 comparison show that doubling the pixels improves resolution by about 15%?
intrnst ·
That’s outrageous! This test is biased.
You didn’t put the T2i data in the charts!
Roger Cicala ·
intrnst, you just made my day 🙂
Thx, I needed that.
David ·
You could have at least finished with “The D800 eats Canons for breakfast.” Or “I’m switching to Nikon.” Or maybe “I’m worried Nikon will bring out a D900 that’s even better. Shoudl I get the D800 now or wait for the D900?” Because, let’s face it, sitting on a computer debating what is the best camera around is much more fun than actually taking photos 🙂
Tom Alicoate ·
Interesting data. Keep it coming. I was wondering when we would start seeing cameras that max out a lot of the lenses.
Thanks
Tom
Keith ·
Nicely done.
Can’t wait to see how the D800E compares to D800 !
Michael ·
Roger, you don’t mention the D800E in your blog post. Any plans to test it as well or are you still waiting for them to arrive?
Roger Cicala ·
Michael, I absolutely plan to test it, but we’re hearing up to another month before we get any to test.
Roger
A ·
As ever interesting work Roger, thankyou!
WRT the discrepancies with Lloyd’s lens list, if the zooms form the majority of the differences between your lists you may find that he tends to shoot at a different end of the zoom range to you when using a particular lens.
I once had a debate so to whether a lens was good or not, and I held a different view of the lens in question (which tends to help in a debate). In the end it turned out that we were both right, because we were almost always using them at opposite ends of the zoom range.
Partly that was down to shooting style, but some of it was also the other lenses we carried. I always used the 17-40 at 17, because I had the 24-105IS for longer shots. Meanwhile he carried the 17-40 and then an 85mm prime and tended to shoot from a greater distance, so most of his use of it was at 40mm.
I note that the best results on most (all?) Canon bodies are at ISO100, whilst Nikon is best at ISO200. I’d be interested to see what happens if you shoot both at ISO100 instead.
I’d be particularly interested to see how the 5D3 performs against the D800 in RAW at higher ISO.
And the main question: Any idea when you’ll get a D800e in for testing?
David Stock ·
“For the couple of people, though, that seem to think the D800 is a Medium Format camera in 35mm clothing, I would point out that a Hasselblad HD50 with kit lens tests out at about 1,600 lp/ih, so no, we’re not quite there yet.”
Fair enough. But not all MF gear reaches that 1,600 level. (What does a Pentax 645D reach with the lenses available?) Meanwhile, the jump from 750 lp with the D700 to over 1200 lp with the D800 puts the latter an awful lot closer.
Roger Cicala ·
David, I have no disagreement the D800 is coming closer – it’s more resolution than I’ll ever need.
The Pentax (the only MF I enjoy shooting with) comes pretty close to the Hassy, resolving around 1500 lp/mm. Neither of those begin to approach what some of the Phase backs are resolving, not that I’ve had the chance to test those myself.
Fazal Majid ·
The non-Tufte-compliant graphs are a bit misleading because the origin is not at zero, thus artificially amplifying differences that are not that major (e.g. between the 5DII and 5DIII).
The DXO tests show it has the same SNR as the 5DmkII, despite having 50% more pixels. Granted, the 5DII is 3 years old, and it will be interesting to compare with the 5DmkIII when it is tested.
A more practical problem is that to get this level of resolution for real-world photography, in addition to top-notch lenses, you need absolutely perfect technique, including the use of tripods (or very high shutter speeds, well above the usual 1/f rule of thumb), and possibly even mirror lock-up.
Roger Cicala ·
Fazal, I agree with you about the graphs, but the format this blog works under limits the size of images pretty severely. With zero origin graphs on a full page image the differences would be easy to see, too, but with 500 pixel maximum widths the graphs get too small on this blog to display properly if I drop down to a zero origin.
Roger
Paul ·
I really, really would like to see you test the 105 2.8 VR.
You know you want to…
Samuel H ·
great read-up, as always
looking forward to the 5D3 high-iso tests; from the samples at dpreview, noise is not a problem, but there are some sharpness issues at very high ISO (beyond 6400): http://www.similaar.com/foto/iso/5d3.html
also: how much of your business is now video-oriented? enough to grant an imatest session in video mode? 🙂
Bill Belvin ·
Thanks for testing. First objective tests I’ve seen.
1. Your comment about theoretical 50% increase in resolution versus 5d3 is wrong. The vertical pixel count of the d800 is 4912, the 5d3 count is 3840, a so d800 has a 28% theoretical increase in lp/ph. Max lp/ph for the d800 is 4912/4 or 1228 (divide by 4 – two pixels per line pair and 2 pixels since Bayer sensor and AA?). You’re getting pretty close with some lenses at the center. For the two lenses you’ve shown comparisons for it looks like the d800 out performs the 5d3 by 14-23%.
2. 645D has a vertical count of 5440 or 1360 lp/ph but since it has no AA filter I would suspect real world would be higher. It will be very interesting to compare the d800 and d800e when they come out, and the d800e with the 645D. Note that 4/3 sensors have an advantage when it comes to lens testing since they tend to have more vertical lp/ph even if they have the exact same total megapixels. Horizontal lp/pw favor 3/2 sensors. The d800 actually has more horizontal pixels than a 645D!
3. The H50 has 6132 pixels / ph or 1533 lp/ph, again no AA filter so real world could be higher.
4. What focal length was the 70-200 tested at? This lens is sharper at 70 than 200.
Thanks again, nice work.
Dave ·
Excellent comparisons with the time constraints you were under. Interesting comment regarding the Pentax 645D. If I understood your comments correctly, with one or some of it’s better performing lenses. it reaches approx 1500 lp/ih? If so the difference between it and the D800 is roughly 67% the difference found between the D700 and D800. Thats quite astounding since the difference between the D700 and D800 is roughly 3x the actual # of pixels whereby were only talking about a difference of 4MP difference between the D800 and 645D. Of course the comparison takes into account more than this as we’re comparing different formats and different sized sensors. Still thats somewhat of a significant difference. Just a dislaimer…I shoot with both the 645D and Nikon system, so I’m not biased to their relative merits in performance to one another.
Mike Askins ·
D800 is a game changer for 35mm FF. No doubt this is a thought provoking professional level platform and will require concerted efforts of those who possess it to produce photos up to its fine resolution capability. This will generally mean a very modest cost layout to obtain the highest resolution lenses available. The idea of f/4 -f/5.6, maybe f/6.3 to achieve peak resolution, even with the most costly lenses attached, means that only in ideal circumstances will output files actually equal the full capability of this fine instrument. This makes me wonder if we have indeed arrived at the limits of FF resolution capability? I mean at 4.8um pixel size (D800), I think that even smaller pixels for the sake of even more MP’s becomes highly unlikely due to the general degradation of signal to noise inherent with smaller pixels.
I can’t wait to see the 800E. Great reporting as usual!
Doug ·
If you’d like to test the phase IQ180 with a few lenses (which flash sync at 1/1600) we’D be happy to help out. 740.707.2183
Roger Cicala ·
Doug, how do I go about drooling online? But I will send a groveling email immediately to see if that could really happen.
Just when I started thinking I’d collected the whole set . . . . . 🙂
Roger
Jon Rista ·
Thanks for the review. The results look spot-on to me, as there shouldn’t be any question the D800 resolves more in the same physical sensor area as any lower-resolution FF sensor. I would have liked to see the 7D thrown in the test, just for comparison’s sake, however (despite being an APS-C sensor.)
When it comes to spatial resolution, your favorite internet fanboy who said he would be sticking with his T2i wasn’t really all that far off the mark. The D800, with its 4.8um pixels, resolves about 102.33lp/mm in terms of spatial resolution (rather than lp/ph.) Conversely, the 7D/60D/600D all use an 18mp APS-C sensor with 4.3um pixels, which resolve about 115.97lp/mm in terms of spatial resolution. I wouldn’t expect the 7D to vastly outperform the D800 at f/4 (and maybe f/2.8 and f/5.6), however I would expect that, assuming the lenses still had more resolution to offer, the 7D would eek more performance out of them than the D800.
In terms of lp/ph, the D800 will still win since it has a physically larger sensor that has more actual rows of pixels, but the 7D and its kin should win in terms of raw spatial resolution and ultimate fineness of detail that can be resolved. I would expect the 7D to perform less than ideal, however…it seems to either have an overly aggressive low-pass filter, or it simply expects too much from lens and photographer, as it produces softer results than I would expect for its spatial resolution.
F8daily.com ·
Great test! Can’t wait to see the D800E results.
Craig Bingman ·
Hi Roger,
For sensors that are the same physical dimensions, the expectation is that increasing the number of pixels will increase resolution as the ratio of the square root of the pixel counts for the two sensors being compared. So for 5DMkIII vs 5DMkII, that ratio is 1.028, so you expect the MkIII to have at most a three percent increase in linear resolution. And you pretty much see that in your graphs. The ratio for the D800 vs. D700 is expected to be 1.732, but the actual observed resolution doesn’t improve that much (probably at least partially a diffraction-limited resolution effect.) The expectation is that the D800 would have a resolution of 1.276 that of the 5DMkIII, and it doesn’t quite make that, either. Still, a very interesting review and a collection of outstanding cameras. Thanks. I’d be happy to take photos with any of them (he says clutching his humble 7D.)
Roger Cicala ·
I just want to thank all those who posted. The comments were enlightening and I learned a lot reading them. Craig, John, Bill and others – I really appreciate you taking the time to post these enlightening comments. It has added immensely to the value of this little thread.
Regards,
Roger Cicala
Brian Potter ·
Thanks for the review. Any plans to see how the Nikon 24mm PC-E lens compares? This combo would appear to be a match made in heaven for landscape work!
Roger Cicala ·
Brian we absolutely will: that and the 45 PC-E are both intriguing. It’s just a matter of keeping the cameras in stock long enough to run the tests.
Samuel H ·
If you’re going to compare with an APS-C sensor, to see if the actual lp/mm numbers work in their smaller pixels, I’d suggest to use a D7000
Looking at the results at dxomark, the sensor in the D800 seems to be a bigger version of that in the D7000 (16 Mpix *1.5*1.5 = 36 Mpix):
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/792|0/%28brand%29/Nikon/%28appareil2%29/676|0/%28brand2%29/Pentax/%28appareil3%29/680|0/%28brand3%29/Nikon
(click on “screen” instead of “print” too see how close these sensors come to each other, pixel by pixel)
Samuel H ·
(the site’s html engine didn’t recognize the full link; copy and paste, instead of clicking)
Dennis Hardenburger ·
Thanks a lot Roger.
I really enjoy your posts they are very informative.
I know it won’t happen but I would love to see you test some of the older lens with the D800.
I use a 28mm f.35 AI and have found it matches the 28 f1.4 AFD very well stopped down.
I also really like the 105 f2 AFD DC, and the 180 f2.8 AFD.
I have had my D800 for three days now and I am totally thrilled with it, and feel lucky that I have one.
Thanks
Dennis
Daniel Browning ·
Great test!
MTF50 is definitely a useful metric, and it’s definitely the most appropriate measure for photographers that don’t use sharpening, or for circumstances where sharpening is avoided due to noise.
But there are a lot of photographers who do use sharpening, and for them MTF-50 is not a significant resolution barrier. Especially in the case where the drop in MTF can be modeled by known point spread functions, such as diffraction. Depending on one’s taste, MTF 0.3 or even 0.15 may be usable with appropriate sharpening (or diffraction deconvolution, if that happens to be the cause of the MTF drop). I think a plot of the MTF-15 would show a much more distinct difference between pixel counts, even for circumstances that are significantly poorer than the ones used in this resolution test (such as cheaper lenses and narrower f-numbers).
For example, two days ago I shot a 70-person group photo with my new D800. I used a cheap 55mm f/2.8 micro nikkor ($90, used) at f/11. But the results were so sharp that there was still several instances of moire (despite softening from both the AA filter and diffraction itself), and after sharpening, the contrast at the highest levels of detail is great. Here is an example of the moire: http://thebrownings.name/images/2012/2012-03-D800/D800-moire-example.png
Karl Riek ·
Hey Roger,
Nice article, even if my eyes did glaze over. However, I love the zings directed at fanboys. Who cares what equipment is used! The only thing that truly matters is the results that are produced. Hell, someone could be shooting with a Kodak Brownie for all I care! 🙂
Anyway, I would expect the 5D Mark III to have better numbers against the Mark II (and the 5D classic). I find it interesting Canon packed more pixels in the 5D Mark III than the new Mark X (which I would really love to buy!).
Thanks for taking the time to create the test and write the blog.
Best regards,
Karl
Joey ·
Great post roger, as always informative! Love reading the comparisons and research, but some of these other comments leave me speechless. Almost gone are the days when actual photographers use these wonderful tools. Put down the calculators, and pick up a camera, and find a way to make it work for you 🙂
Tim L ·
Another great post, Roger! I don’t know if there is a more interesting photography-related blog on the net.
When you get the opportunity to do more testing I would be interested to see to what extend diffraction actually affects resolution in the real world. Given the apertures at which you tested, I would assume that the fall off in resolution reflects diminishing lens performance rather than the effects of diffraction. This leads me to wonder if diffraction really has much of a practical effect or if it is masked by reduced lens performance at smaller apertures.
Roger Cicala ·
Tim,
I expect the fall off we’re seeing at f/8 is largely diffraction related. I could be wrong, there might be other explanations, but I think diffraction is the fast horse. We would be expecting to see it by that point, or certainly by f/11.
Shawn ·
Don’t forget who developed and manufactured the D800 sensor before you make a declaration of who’s king of the castle…
Jay Stebbins ·
I look forward to seeing the results of more Nikon lenses on the D800. I am sure there will be some surprises in the coming weeks as more combinations are explored.
I am also very curious about what would result if you used an adapter and some respectable medium format glass on the D800? Could something like this be used to expand the depth of field before diffraction sets in? For a landscape photographer…
Frans van den Bergh ·
Thanks for the early results, Roger!
The peak MTF50 for the Zeiss lens looks slightly low. If I understand your chart, you report MTF50 in line pairs per picture height. For the D800, this would mean about 1225 line pairs over 4912 lines, or about 0.25 cycles per pixel. This value is very high, but lower than I expected.
For example, using a Sigma 17-50 mm f/2.8 at 35 mm f/5 on a Nikon D40, I measure almost 0.3 cycles per pixel in the green channel. Swapping the D40 with a D7000, I measure about 0.29 cycles per pixel (meaning mostly that either the lens is limiting resolution slightly, or I have not achieved perfect focus). See http://mtfmapper.blogspot.com/2012/03/measuring-centre-sharpness-of-my-sigma.html for more details.
Since the D7000’s pixel pitch is ever-so-slightly smaller than the D800, I would expect similar results if the AA filter blurs to the same degree.
So now I have to wonder: did Nikon mount a slightly softer AA filter on the D800 (compared to D7000) in anticipation of the D800E, or are we simply looking at a (very minor) measurement error?
Based on my measurements, and assuming similar AA strength on the D800 and D7000, I would expect peak MTF50 values of around 1425 line pairs per picture height. Of course, that level of sharpness will only be seen in the real world by pure luck 🙂
AJ ·
Dear Roger,
Thank you for reporting you test reports. Very informative.
However the tests cover the ‘best camera, best lens’ scenario.
It would be nice if you were to compare the D800 vs. the D700 with ‘less than ideal’ glass for comparison purposes as you mention that better quality lenses are required to get the best performance out of the D800.
Thus buying a D800 also means having stock of, or purchasing, better lenses to go with it.
one way or another, the ‘total cost of ownership’ is high.
For those that have ‘good’ affordable’ lenses perhaps the change to a D800 is not waranted if the results are not going to be significantly different from the D700 with ‘good afordable’ lenses.
Just a thought.
Kind regards,
AJ
Jorg ·
I think the guy with the T2i was exactly right… providing you limit your photos to computer screens and don’t print large pictures, and probably 90% of us do.
Alex ·
Roger –
Any thoughts about where the Sony A900 would have placed on this test?
Roger Cicala ·
Alex,
I would expect it to be right around the 5Ds, assuming we got one of the better lenses on it.
John Harrison ·
Roger,
Nice article and analysis! I look forward to more tests and now will have to increase my purchasing and rental budgets accordingly! Great mention to referencing Lloyd’s site as it is a wealth of data to help raise the bar in maximizing our new found equipment and making fine prints! I bought a new D800 and now I need not only a new computer, new tripod, new printer, new memory cards, but also lots of awesome glass to squeeze the most pixels out of it! It never ends 🙂 The camera is cheap in comparison to those extras. I guess I will have to rent more lenses!
Keep shootin’
John
PaulB ·
I would like to see the Leica M9 added to the above charts using comparable lenses for the M-mount; since it was mentioned. I suspect the results will be fairly close the the Canon results, but the lack of an AA filter should give it a slight edge.
PaulB
Roger Cicala ·
Paul,
We ran M9s with all the various 50mm lenses (we think the 50mm f/1.4 Summilux is possibly their sharpest) and it was clearly better than the 5D II / III and D3x bodies, but not as good as the D800. Look at our “great 50mm shootout” article.
Jack ·
Great article!
Do note that the D800 files are more than 2x the size of the 5D3’s. What a load of extra bytes of data for a 15% increase in resolution.
And… this resolution increase is subjected to lens quality, camera shake, ISO and what nots.
Daniel Browning ·
* Jack wrote:
> Do note that the D800 files are more than 2x the size
> of the 5D3?s. What a load of extra bytes of data for a
> 15% increase in resolution.
There may be a few things you’re not considering. First, you are comparing a one-dimensional unit of measure with a two-dimensional one — it makes no sense. It’s like saying “this 13-inch box takes up more than 2x the volume of the 10-inch box. What a load of extra volume for only a 3-inch increase.”
Second, the 15% increase that Roger measured only applies to you if you don’t use any sharpening and MTF-50 happens to coincide with your personal idea of a resolution limit. Neither of those apply to me or a number of other photographers, which is why I and many others are reporting success achieving the maximum theoretically-possible increase in linear resolution (27%).
You can already find dozens of examples around the web of pixel-sharp D800 shots. For example, this 100% crop from my D800 is sufficiently sharp for me: http://thebrownings.name/images/2012/2012-03-D800/res-example-crop.jpg — and that’s softened very heavily by diffraction at f/11 (Roger stopped at f/8 because diffraction was getting so bad).
Third, I consider Nikon’s file format options to be significantly more compact than Canon’s. The so-called “lossy” (or non-reversible) NEF compression is excellent for reducing file size and is not “lossy” in any meaningful way. You can also select 12 bits for an even more reasonable file size without sacrificing anything compared to Canon. (I explained in another of Roger’s blog posts why Canon’s 14 bit files really have no more than 12 bits of actual useful data.)
Jerry Russell ·
Regarding Daniel Browning’s remarks:
How do you do your sharpening? Do you have an application that does “diffraction deconvolution”? Your sample looks great.
I think I see the “moire” — you’re referring to the broad, dark banding, right? It appears to be a “beat” pattern between the texture of the cloth, and the pixel spacing. Wouldn’t you expect to see at least some of that type of artifact, unless you filter hard at half the nyquist rate?
I’m not sure I understand why you would expect the results of this test to be different at MTF30 or MTF15. DXOmark tests lenses at MTF20, and if you look at their results for the Canon 85 1.8 (sharpest Canon lens they’ve tested) they get 67 lp/mm on the 1ds3 (pixel pitch 6.4 um) and 80 lp/mm on the 7D (pixel pitch 4.3 um). That is, a 48% increase in linear pixel density on the 7D (2x the data per square millimeter of sensor area) buys a 20% improvement in resolution at MTF20.
This also highlights the fact that it’s just as important to use high resolution lenses to get the most out of any recent crop camera, as it is to use great lenses on a D800. For that matter, a 5Dii/iii or an old 40D is almost as demanding.
Jerry Russell ·
This may be a thread-jack, but I hope Roger will open things up for a more general D800 vs. 5diii discussion. I can’t think of anyone better qualified to make the comparison.
I’m moving up from crop to full frame, so several of my old lenses are irrelevant anyhow, and it will never be easier for me to switch brands.
The D800 definitely has the better sensor. Judging from the sample photos around the web, I’d say it’s at least a half-stop better at high ISO than the 5diii, and it has that incredible 14.4 ev of dynamic range according to DXOmark.
But, the 5diii sensor is a big improvement over the 5dii. I didn’t understand this until I looked very closely at the RAW files. My guess is the difference between the 5dii and 5diii sensors won’t show in the DXOmark scores — but it looks to me like they’ve made a big reduction in the color blotchiness and banding of their pattern noise. The actual usability of the images might be one or even two stops better than the 5dii at high ISO. And, using reasonable noise reduction, I’d say that it’s now possible to pull 3 or 4 stops of shadow boost in LR at low ISO, whereas the 5dii and 7d could only do a stop or two — and my 50D looks bad in the shadows even at ISO 100 with no shadow boost at all.
I think maybe I can live with the Canon’s 22 megapixels of resolution, and 3 or 4 ev of usable dynamic range headroom. The Nikon sensor is better, but maybe not so much better that it would make much difference for real-world photographic conditions.
Canon has some advantages too — better customer service and parts availability, for one thing. Better lenses, and a better selection of lenses. Their autofocus is certainly more complex, though I don’t know whether that means it’s better. Anything else?
John Jovic ·
Nice work!
JJ
Daniel Browning ·
* Jerry Russel wrote:
> How do you do your sharpening?
Usually just Lightroom.
> Do you have an application that does “diffraction deconvolution”?
I don’t shoot in diffraction-limited circumstances very often (I’m more of an f/2.8 kind of guy), but I’m still looking into it. My front runner is Raw Therapee, which uses the Richardson Lucy algorithm.
That said, I may have used a similar deconvolution in this case. IIRC, Eric Chan (one of the software engineers behind ACR/Lightroom) said that the sharpening slider moves between USM and deconvolution sharpening with a gaussian PSF. I’m not sure how much different that is from a diffraction PSF (probably just models the central spot and no rings), but I vaguely recall someone saying they were similar enough to be used for the same purpose. Somewhere in the middle (which is where my setting was for this shot), the slider uses a mix of both.
> Your sample looks great.
Thanks. For that I one I used 45/1.0/100 in LR4.
> I think I see the “moire” — you’re referring to the broad, dark banding, right?
Yes.
> Wouldn’t you expect to see at least some of that type of artifact, unless you filter hard at half the nyquist rate?
Yes, but my feeling is that I’m seeing it more and easier with the D800 than the 5D2.
> I’m not sure I understand why you would expect the results of this test to be different at MTF30 or MTF15.
Because my understanding is that most lenses have long-tail MTF curves. Their MTF drops pretty precipitously for the first 30 lp/mm or so, but then it holds on to the last bit of MTF for a long time. But perhaps I’m mistaken.
> DXOmark tests lenses at MTF20, and if you look at their results for the Canon 85 1.8 (sharpest Canon lens they’ve tested) they get 67 lp/mm on the 1ds3 (pixel pitch 6.4 um) and 80 lp/mm on the 7D (pixel pitch 4.3 um). That is, a 48% increase in linear pixel density on the 7D (2x the data per square millimeter of sensor area) buys a 20% improvement in resolution at MTF20.
I must be mistaken, then. I thought that hitting MTF-15 at frequencies nearing the Nyquist of a 4.3 micron pixel wasn’t really that exceptional, but perhaps it is. I’m glad that my $90 macro is one of them. It’s hard for me to find the data you used on dxomark, their site has been very slow lately.
Can you check their data for the 300mm f/2.8 II? That thing is almost diffraction limited, and even with a 2X TC turns in nearly flawless resolution. But if DxOMark thinks it’s no better than the 85mm f/1.8, I think there must be something else going on, because I’m pretty certain the 300mm can give the full expected return of 4.3 micron pixels.
> This also highlights the fact that it’s just as important to use high resolution lenses to get the most out of any recent crop camera, as it is to use great lenses on a D800.
Agreed.
Rob ·
Brian Potter – the 24pc-e is sadly not fully compatible with the D800! the popup flash gets in the way of movements.
Also it looks like the live view 100% zoom is acting a bit weird too, which isnt great for tilt shift use…
Duncan D ·
Thanks for the tests can’t wait to see which lens are fit for this big boy
Frans van den Bergh ·
*Daniel Browning wrote:
> I’m not sure how much different that is from a diffraction PSF (probably just models the central spot and no rings), but I vaguely recall someone saying they were similar enough to be used for the same purpose.
This depends on what aperture you are referring to. At larger apertures (say, f/2.8 to f/5) the MTF curve of diffraction looks very much like a straight line (see my earlier post for a link with examples). In other words, it decays much more slowly with increasing frequency, compared to the Gaussian approximation of the sensor AA filter.
The RL deconvolution implementation in RawTherapee is hard-coded to use assume a Gaussian PSF. This implies that for a small radius (standard deviation) setting of about 0.57 in RT’s RL sharpening, you can “undo” the Gaussian blur of the AA filter, but diffraction will remain. If you use a larger radius, you will sharpen more, effectively reducing the effects of diffraction, but also introducing significant distortion below Nyquist.
Daniel Browning ·
Ah, thank you for the explanation!
Jerry Russell ·
Daniel: Thank you! DXO says the 300 2.8 IS II gets 61 lp/mm on the 7D. Looking through more of the DXO lens data, I agree there’s something odd going on. They think the 70-300L is not any sharper than the old 70-300 IS, for example.
George Barr ·
Information much appreciated. Wonder where the Pentax 645D and say, the 120 macro would fit in the graphs.
Bryan Willman ·
Do you have the same data for an M9, and could you overlay it with the D800?
As an M9 user, and geek, I’ve always been a little perplexed by the high ratio of “picture success” to “technical specs” – and just think “it’s the lenses” and shrug.
Also – you test suggested that for the D800 and the 5dM3, resolution is lens limited wide open, but becomes sensor limited by about f/4 for these particular lenses. I wonder if we’re coming to an age when 1st line cameras will be limited lenses rather than sensors. (And both will be swamped by technique.)
Dave Sucsy ·
Hey Roger,
Thanks for your great business and your great blogs and testing info. Also your sense of humor. We might as well have fun while doing our work!
I’m annoyed with both Nikon and Canon. The D800’s versatility of the file size (croppability, down-res ability, and better dark value manipulability) may cause me big trouble in having to switch from Canon to Nikon. And Nikon is really holding my nose to the grindstone in causing me to have to be more picky than ever with my technique. All I do is real shooting for a living.
Thanks again for this objective performance report.
Pavel Vaisberg ·
Hey!
Thanks for the testing.
Trying to figure out is the D800 will give any advantages in macro (real one 🙂 ) where effective working aperture is 30 and smaller. Is any tests showing the graph until f22 (by settings)?
Thanks again!
Daniel Browning ·
Pavel, it depends on which camera you are upgrading from. If it’s the D700, then there most definitely will be a significant detail increase possible with the D800, even when both are compared at f/30. If it’s from the D3X, which is very near to the diffraction cutoff frequency for f/30 (i.e. MTF = 0% for green light), then the difference in detail will be nothing (the only possible improvement will be due to contrast variation between the two OLPF).
malchon kao ·
What is your comments by using old full frame lens as Hasselblad connected to D800?
I collected 4 lens but really like to listen to you.
I did not use very often since overlap the range of Leica R lens.
Thanks
Daniel Browning ·
Jerry,
Not wanting to sidetrack Roger’s blog with my thoughts on the D800 and switching from Canon to Nikon, I went ahead and created a thread in a totally separate forum:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1169176
See you there.
Roger Cicala ·
Daniel,
Feel free to post anything you like here. I want it to be a bit of a refuge for thoughtful commentary like yours without fanboi drivel.
And let me suggest that everyone follow the link to Daniel’s extremely well thought out, factual, and impartial review. I could not have done it as well but I agree with it completely. It captures the ‘essence’ of the camera very thoroughly.
Now I’ve got to get Daniel to start writing some blog posts over here 🙂
Roger
Daniel Browning ·
Thank you, Roger! You’re too kind.
John D ·
I know this comment comes way late in the game but was wondering what the results would be on a non Ivy-League lens like an 18-200. The reason I ask is because I am always asking myself “compared to what?” For the tests you did above, I think the comparison is (keeping my metaphor intact) “Comparing the Harvards to the Yales.”
It got me wondering what a state school could do.
Roger Cicala ·
John,
Like most lenses, it will give more resolution on a D800 than on another camera. But the difference between it and another lens may (may) be magnified.
Simone ·
Roger,
wanted to say thanks for this interesting article.
Impressive performance from D800, more so if one considers how much the effect of sharpening is boosted by increase in resolution.
I tried to quantify it with a simulation scenario about sensor performance that I completed before actual full frame DSLRs came out. (full frame 20mpxls, 36mpxls and 50mpxls). Empirical data you posted seem to confirm it.
I think resolution is not one of the main factors involved in producing and printing, good pictures; but most of us crave for performance when buying a new top-end body, so knowing how much boost we can expect can offer a guideline for upgrade.
Im posting the link in case you may be interested in knowing how far a 50mpxls body would get; the full analysis is in the attached pdf.
The development is a bit math-oriented but final results are readily usable.
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=2412.msg51441#msg51441
Regards
Simone
Terence ·
Great work and interesting results. But can you explain why your MTF 50 figures are about one third of Photozone – and I think they used a Nikon D3 to test the 100 mm Zeiss. This is just a technical question not a criticism. I thought the MTF 50 in lp/h was a standard used to enable independent comparisons. I would expect slight variations in measurement, but not 3x. I’ve pasted the link to the Photozone test.
Thanks
http://www.photozone.de/nikon_ff/590-zeisszf10020ff?start=1
Roger Cicala ·
Terence,
Photozone is using Line widths per image height, I believe, I use Line pairs / mm. So you would double our line pairs / image height results to get line widths. (A black or a white line is one line width, and black and white line is one line pair.)
They also test jpgs, while we’re testing raw images. jpgs are always going to be sharper (we see about 50%). One’s not better than the other: Photozone is showing what the image should resolve out-of-the-camera. We’re trying to eliminate as many variables as possible for testing purposes.
Of course, there’s still going to be some variation: which charts are used, what distance was tested, copy-to-copy variations, etc.
Roger
Terence ·
Thanks for that clarification, Roger – it makes perfect sense.
Regards,
Terence
Carles Mitja ·
Dear Roger, I have a couple of questions.
1) What kind of units are those in the vertical axis of published plots? I understand MTF50 but I’m not sure about the vertical axis units.
2) When you said “We then used Adobe’s DNG converter which handled the files with no problems and didn’t manipulate them at all, so we used RAW-to-DNG conversions for all the cameras to make sure things were equal.”, What it really means? Did you deactivated or zeroed all ACR tabs? o did you preserved the default adjustments?
Thanks a lot for your time.
Carles
Roger Cicala ·
Carles,
All axis are measure in line pairs / image height.
We zero all adjustments.
Roger
Carles Mitja ·
OK, Roger I understand. I will assume that you have measured MTF for “horizontal” picture height.
Then, your plots are comparing things that I think cannot be compared. A result of about 1200lp/PH for the MTF50 value in the case of the D800 is WORSE than a result of about 1050lp/PH for the same MTF50 in the 5DMKII case. It’s been comparing absolute units from each camera in a relative fashion. It is more or less obvious that the D800 with its higher absolute resolution tends to proportionate a higher ABSOLUTE result.
I have reduced the results for the MTF50 from your plots to relative units, using it as a percentage of the resolution capabilities of each camera, and the results are:
– D800. MTF50 at about 1200lp/PH, it means MTF50 at 32.6% of its theoretical capability.
– 5DMKIII. MTF50 at about 1050lp/PH, it means MTF50 at 36.5% of its theoretical capability.
– 5DMKII. MTF50 at about 1010lp/PH, it means MTF50 at 36.% of its theoretical capability.
The higher the frequency where the MTF50 is achieved, the best the image quality performance. It is true that the final differences are not so important in terms of pictorial results and its influence will depends on the scene contents in terms of frequency or details, but they are quite different than those explained in your post.
After all, the D800 lost in contrast is a fine result for a camera with such small photo-receivers.
Do you agree?
Carles Mitja ·
P. D.
I have selected the f/4 Zeiss 25mm results to do my calculations because is the best one achieved for the three cameras.