Sony E Mount Lens Optical Bench Tests
It has taken a long time, the sacrifice of a couple of cameras and lenses, and a lot of soldering, but we have finally managed to rig up a powered Sony mount to our optical bench so that we can test the new full-frame Sony and Sony-Zeiss E-mount lenses.
For those of you who haven’t understood why there has been a problem, I’ll explain it for you. The optical bench tests lenses at infinity focus. Most lenses have a mechanical focusing ring. You set it to infinity, confirm it (because some lenses can actually focus past infinity, which screws up the test results), put them on the bench and test them. A few lenses are ‘focus-by-wire’; they are focused by the electric AF motor even when you turn the focusing ring manually. Most of these are no trouble either. You put them on the camera, focus to infinity, take them off and the focus stays where it last was.
Sony’s newer lenses (and some micro 4/3 lenses) are different. They are focused by an electromagnet. You can put them on the camera and focus to infinity, but when you take them off the camera the focusing group just falls back to wherever it wants to be, which is never infinity focus.
So in order to test Sony lenses on the optical bench we had to find a way to keep the lens hooked to the camera, but at the same time have it off the camera because it has to be mounted to the bench’s Sony test plate. Our solution isn’t particularly elegant, but it works. We took apart a random lens and camera to get a lens mount and camera mount. We modified one of the Optical Bench mounting plates so it contained a Sony camera mount. We then wired that to an empty lens mount. We place the test lens in the mounting plate (red line), put the empty lens mount into the camera, and we can control the lens focus by using the camera while the lens is on the optical bench.

Yeah, it looks crude. But this is version 3.0; the first two attempts were much cruder. Before you make fun remember we sacrificed an A7, an 18-200 lens, and a $900 optical test plate just to get you some numbers. OK, we really did it because it sounded fun and because nobody else in the Known Universe can test Sony lenses on an optical bench right now and we can. So there!
Remember This is Beta Testing
The goal and objective is to compare Sony lenses both to each other and to other E-mount lenses from Zeiss, Sigma, and whomever. But I know people are also going to compare them to Canon, Nikon, and other lenses. I want to emphasize that we’re learning as we go and I’m writing as we learn. So two months from now I may be writing one of those articles that tell you we’ve found an error in our technique or a better way to do it. I don’t think so, we’ve been experimenting for a while now, but that’s what happens when you do new things that nobody else is doing.
More importantly, there are some differences in the testing methods for the Sony-mount lenses compared to the Canon and Nikon mount tests we’ve been doing. We want to be as transparent as possible, so I’m going to identify all of those differences I can think of.
There is Glass in the Path
First, unlike most of the Canon and Nikon mount tests we’ve already done, we’ve added 2mm of optical glass to the testing path of these lenses. Why? Because we ran lots of trial tests and found that at least the first Sony lenses we tested performed much better with that amount of glass in the optical path. It made a big difference with the Sony lenses, while it did not make much difference for most of the Canon and Nikon lenses we tested. Why are Sony lenses more sensitive? My best guess, and it’s just a guess, is that their exit pupil is further to the rear than some of the other lenses. It’s also very possible that the shorter flange-to-sensor distance (18mm for Sony, 44mm for Canon) makes the lenses more sensitive to glass in the optical pathway. (For both of you who want to know we tested both 3 and 1mm and 2mm gave the best results.)
We ‘See’ Fewer Corners
With all of our other lenses the optical bench gives us a complete open circle. We test 4 quadrants and see results out to the edge of the frame (20mm of sensor distance) in all 4 directions. Our electronic Sony mount includes the rectangular light baffle that the Sony camera mount has. This means at certain rotations (top to bottom in camera terms) our view is cut off at roughly 15mm, the distance of the top or bottom of the sensor from the center. The result is our numbers for a Canon or Nikon lens measure each lens all the way to 8 edges (2 edges for each of 4 rotations). With the Sony lenses we only measure 6, the top and bottom are cut off. You can make an argument that this might make the variation appear slightly larger (there are few numbers in the mathematically average), or slightly smaller (we might not ‘see’ a bad corner) than it would be if we could measure all 4 corners. I think the only important point is that we should be conservative when making comparisons to Canon and Nikon tests. The tests are slightly different.
There May Be a Bigger Difference Between These Tests and Pictures You Take
We know that Sony ‘cooks the RAW’ at least a bit, doing some in-camera modifications to raw files. I don’t know exactly what or to what degree. They aren’t alone in this, it seems to be the wave of the future to do some in-camera correction for at least distortion. But it appears they are the only full-frame cameras to do in-camera RAW correction at this moment.
What that means, though, is that tests of just the lens without a camera body, like we’re doing here, may be quite a bit different than what comes out of the camera. For example, our tests of the FE 35mm f/1.4 ZA show a LOT more distortion than tests done on a camera body using Imatest or DxO optics; we show 4% distortion where most of the on-camera testing shows 1% or less. This probably means that the camera is processing the distortion out of the image. (It could also mean that the distortion is very different focused up close, where DxO and Imatest work, then at infinity, where the optical bench works.) Depending upon your point of view that may be good, bad, or make no difference to you at all.
The same thing may (or may not) apply to sharpening. If there’s a little sharpening going on in the raw image, then you may think “Roger you said that lens isn’t so sharp, but the RAW images look very sharp, and the report from this other site using Imatest says it’s very sharp, too”. To take it a step further, sharpening may be applied more to the corners and edges, or vignetting correction applied, or other stuff. (Again, I don’t know if it is or not.)
Because so many people struggle with this idea, I’ll repeat what I say over and over: I’m testing the lens alone. (You would not believe how many people ask what camera these tests are done on.) Other sites are testing the image that has been processed by the camera. Since you’re using the camera, their results will look more like your results and you’ll not see much of the distortion in your images. About 90% of you are going to think ‘why would I care’, and you’d be right. What comes out of the camera is more important.
But if you’re a lens geek like me, what the lens is actually providing TO the sensor is important, if only for esoteric reasons. Or maybe not just esoteric reasons. If the lens is inferior, but the image looks better from in-camera processing, you may not be able to manipulate the RAW as much as you would like, because it’s already been manipulated once. A lot of people are very excited about Sony uncompressed raw because they will be able to do more intense post-processing. But uncompressed doesn’t mean unmodified. If the raw is still modified before you get it, post-processing may still be somewhat limited.
Of course, the vast majority of photographers could care less, but then they probably don’t read this blog 🙂
Some Test Results
We have lots of Sony and Sony mount lenses to test and it’s going to take a while to get them all done. Today I’ll present 3 of the lenses many people have wanted to see: the Sony FE 35mm f/1.4 ZA, the Sony FE 55mm f/1.8 ZA, and the Sony FE 90mm f/2.8 Macro OSS. We’ll show you the MTF curves and copy-to-copy variation graphs for each, comparing them to some of the Canon and Nikon mount lenses we’ve tested. Again, please remember that testing techniques are slightly different for the Sony lenses as explained above.
Sony FE 35mm f/.4 ZA
(Note: this post originally published too early with an incorrect MTF graph for the Sony FE 35mm f/1.4 ZA lens. It has been corrected as of 4:20 pm CST. I apologize for the error, I was trying to get the post up as I was leaving for New York.)
We’ll compare the Sony to several other 35mm lenses. The Sigma and Canon are amazingly good 35mm lenses. The Sony is better than the more average Nikon 35mm f/1.4. It’s certainly not quite as good as either the Canon or the Sigma as far as resolution goes.

When we look at copy-to-copy variation, something we’ve long thought was the case becomes documented.

I’m going to avoid comparing the consistency numbers, because as we’ve mentioned the testing for the Sony lenses is a bit different. But the variation graphs show what our photographic experience with this lens has suggested. The FE 35mm f/1.4 ZA lenses are all over the place. It actually is a bit worse than the graphs look because a lot of the variance is WITHIN a copy, not just copy-to-copy. None of the 10 copies we tested had even corners. And I’ll editorialize and say that none of the dozens we’ve tested on Imatest had even corners either. If you use this lens for centered objects, you’ll be happy. If you want 4 sharp corners, it’s not likely to happen unless your standards for equal sharpness are pretty low.
Sony FE 55mm f/1.8 ZA
Going into these tests, I had expected the 55mm f/1.8 ZA to do better than the 35mm f/1.4 and it did. Compared to a sampling of other 50-something lenses, the Sony 55 does very well on the MTF charts. Its center resolution is superb and it maintains sharpness very well to the edges. The Nikkor 58mm and Zeiss Otus 55m lenses are being tested here at f/1.4, which gives the Sony lens a bit of an unfair advantage, but it’s still excellent and holding it’s own against the best lenses in this range at the very least.

The copy-to-copy variation graphs for the 55mm lens show it has a lot better consistency than the 35mm, too. There’s some variation, but it’s similar to most of the other 50ish lenses we’ve tested. The Canon 50mm f/1.8 is very much the exception, being the only 50mm lens we’ve tested that has almost no copy-to-copy variation.

Sony FE 90mm f/2.8 OSS Macro
The FE 90mm Macro shows a good, not great MTF chart. It’s certainly not bad, but not something to get overly excited about. Remember, though, that Macro lenses often perform better close up, where they are designed to work, than at infinity focus, where this test is done. If you’re using this as a long portrait or short telephoto lens, these results should reflect what you see (other than if there’s sharpening done in RAW). At macro distances, it may perform differently.

Things aren’t quite so good when we look at copy-to-copy variation, though. Medium focal length macro lenses are usually very consistent. In this case, the Sony has a lot of variation compared to the others. The type of variation we’re seeing is also quite different from the Sony FE 35mm f/1.4. That lens has a lot of corner variation in every copy, but the center remains is consistently sharp comparing one lens to another. With the Macro, there’s a lot of center variation and it’s not particularly worse in the corners. This suggests there is significant copy-to-copy variation in overall sharpness, rather than individual lenses have a bad corner.

So What Can We Take Away Today?
Mostly we are just starting with FE lens testing. Over the next few weeks, we should get a good handle on how the Sony lenses compare to each other.
I think there’s no question we’ve seen support for what a lot of people are claiming: the 35mm f/1.4 ZA lens is very likely to have some tilt with one corner or side out of the plane of focus. Depending on what you photograph this may make no difference to you, or may be a huge issue. But I doubt sending copy after copy back is going to make much difference (you may trade a soft right upper corner for a slightly soft left side, etc.). We’ve taken a couple of these apart and there’s not a ton of optical adjustments that can be made: there are a set of shims behind the front group that can be modified a bit, but it’s a crude and very time-consuming adjustment, so I don’t think it’s generally going to be something that can be fixed.
The 55mm f/1.8 is really a good lens, very sharp and consistently made. The 90 mm f/2.8 is a decent lens, reasonably sharp, but there seems to be a fair bit of copy-to-copy variation in overall sharpness.
All that being said, these lenses may look better on-camera than on the optical bench because there seems to be at least some modification of files as the raw is written. We’ll get a better handle on that as we test more lenses. And let me emphasize, the only clear evidence we see for that is with distortion correction. There may be nothing more than that going on.
Roger Cicala and Aaron Closz
Lensrentals.com
October, 2015
90 Comments
MayaTlab ·
Thanks a lot ! Perhaps it’s just because today is trailer day, but this bench looks like it was built with a hydrospanner.
Roger Cicala ·
Maya, I think if we could make it walk around, it wouldn’t look out of place in The Trailer. I think the cover of the bench is Duraplast and there’s certainly some transparasteel in there.
Wally ·
Thanks for going to the trouble of setting up for FE lenses. If I remember correctly the 90mm f/2.8 had pretty good numbers in the earlier Imatest results, perhaps infinity is to far for this macro lens. The tests also back what I hear on the on-line forums about various lenses, there is just too much variation among the new Sony lenses, some people get great lenses and some dogs.
CarVac ·
Just curious, could you take an AA filter stripped from a dead camera and see the effect it has on delivered MTF versus a plain piece of glass?
Roger Cicala ·
CarVac, we didn’t, we need glass slightly larger than sensor size. The best we can do is try various thicknesses of optical glass and see the effect. In this case it was pretty clear that 2mm of glass was very close to correct. It’s intersting, with Canon and Nikon lenses we didn’t see much difference in the first half-dozen lenses we did so we left the glass out (testing is quicker and easier without it), but looking back on things I wonder with a couple of lenses if it might make a difference. We’re doing some retesting to make sure with them. But with FE 2mm is clearly needed.
stu ·
I’m so glad you guys are doing this because the greater amount of scrutiny could be an incentive for Sony to improve the consistency of its lenses through greater quality control. Indeed, it seems like decentering is an issue that is frequently mentioned for Sony lenses. It is somewhat scary to spend money on a product that performs underwhelmingly due to poor quality control and I have pushed back buying some Sony lenses due to this alone. I really don’t want to have to go through a few copies to finally get a good one…
obican ·
Oh, expect some angry comments here because everyone has been saying that Sony 90mm Macro is better than Canon’s IS L since some website claimed so.
Roger Cicala ·
Obican, it may well be at Macro distances, and it may be that camera-lens combination is better (sensor microlenses and other stuff can play a part). I can just say it isn’t at infinity and without a camera.
David Braddon-Mitchell ·
Variation in these lenses is a real worry; my first 90 was badly skewed: the second fairly symmetrical. I got a pretty good 35 1.4 that was a little worse on the bottom right, but kept it thinking that my odds of a better one were low.
I’ve never used the 90 at infinity, but one thing about he 35 1.4 is that it seems significantly worse at infinity than at closer distances (almost like the earlier Sigma 50 1.4 in this respect). Perhaps it’s optimised for environmental portrait distances, which kind of makes sense for a 35 1.4 (not the sort of lens I’d use for most infinity purposes except astro)
Roger Cicala ·
David, that’s a really good point and one I didn’t make for the 35mm like I did for the 90mm. This is what makes comparing this kind of testing with DxO or Imatest interesting. Is it the focusing distance? Something the camera is doing? Something else? It fascinates me, trying to figure out what is actually going on.
MayaTlab ·
Haha, I can’t handle that level of geekiness (emphasised by the most appropriate reverential capitalisation). But dare I suggest that walking is SO 4 ABY ? Now you’re hip if you ROLL.
On a more serious note, would the raw cooking you think is applied affect sample variation as well as average performances ?
Roger Cicala ·
Maya, I’m not sure about it. I can see situations where it might. I’m totally speculating but lets say distortion correction, localized sharpening and vignetting correction take place in all 4 corners, but the lens is tilted so one corner is out of focus. It may be that the other corners improve a lot but the out of focus not at all, making the difference seem greater, not smaller.
Fabrizio Giudici ·
Many thanks for this. The decentering of Sony lenses was something that had been reasonably proved by many, but your bench and the capability of testing batches of lenses gives us a robust data set. Thanks also for the consideration about the scarce margins for improvement… for some time I guessed whether it would make sense to ask for the lab to tweak my lenses and reduce the decentering, but now I suppose it wouldn’t bring much benefits. Longing for you to test the Sony lenses I own.
A ·
Wouldn’t it have been cheaper and easier to hack an extension tube for the Sony mounts?
Roger Cicala ·
Adrian, you have just figured out what version 1.0 was. Didn’t work out with the solders very well.
Fred ·
Your tests and observations are always interesting and illuminating for me. None of what you have found in testing these lenses seems unreasonable. Sony always brings out the fear of the dark side in me now. I was a devoted acolyte for many years and the disillusion came hard. I look forward to your updates.
david stock ·
Thanks for starting these tests, which are very interesting to me.
One request, keeping in mind that you are beta testing:
I understand that lots of people prioritize wide-open lens performance, but obviously that’s not always the best indicator of overall lens sharpness or quality.
For instance, in some online tests, the Sony 90mm FE macro is just competent wide open, but blazingly sharp stopped down.
It would be great to see some of the Sony and Sony-Zeiss lenses tested at their optimum apertures in the future, for those of us who use lenses that way.
–d
Roger Cicala ·
David, we plan on doing that complete kind of testing. It took several hundred hours to get just the Canon primes all done, and the Sony lenses are going to take a while, but I hope to have a full database by the end of the year.
obican ·
Let’s see. Maybe the 90 and 35 scoring so badly is due to fact they were optimised for closer distances and maybe, again just maybe, the camera can make a pretty good image with those lenses due to microlenses and software and such.
Could those microlenses and software and such have an effect on lens variance too? Maybe they’re working amazingly efficient at correcting the lens to bring it on the same level as top lenses in their class, so that they can fix a lot of that invariance too. Could this be?
Naah, still doesn’t explain why people are complaining about not getting a good copy on the first three tries. 🙂
D. Garlans ·
Just out of curiosity, why did you sacrifice an a7 instead of something dirt cheap like an nex3 or c3 of f3? The E mount can still control FE lenses I believe, so it probably would have worked. Or are the a7’s easier to get into?
Roger Cicala ·
D. Garlans, because we had a banged up one available that was too rough to rent.
L.P.O. ·
Roger,
thanks again for superb research. Even though I don’t own Sony equipment, nor do I plan to at the moment, it is good to be in the know.
A few words regarding cooking of RAW, though. While I believe things like vignetting correction to be very possible to cook into RAW images, I find it a bit hard to believe that they would really do distortion correction. That’d be a pretty intensive (not to speak of lossy) operation with RGBG mosaic data. I don’t say it isn’t happening, but the Occam’s razor principle makes me find it much more likely that the lens distortion characteristics just change with focusing distance.
Have a nice Back to the Future day!
obican ·
Is there a way we can mount the 90mm on a Sony camera and run an IMA test but without connecting it to the camera electronicaly? That way we could find out whether something is done to RAW after recognizing the lens or not.
Btw, I’ve noticed that A7’s Auto WB was consistently off when testing a Canon 70-200/2.8L IS via a Commlite adapter and Minolta 70-210/4 via LA-EA4. Camera would always dial some more magenta tint to Minolta.
Brandon ·
LPO,
Several manufactures already cook distortion correction into the raws, see e.g. Photozone’s findings in the micro 4/3 realm.
Distortion is caused by an asymmetry of lens power about the aperture stop. Internal focusing lenses do have their distortion change as they focus, as moving an element changes the power of that element and the one behind it, but it should never be as extreme as 4x. Even 2x would be extreme except for a macro lens, as macro lenses focus down to one of the special cases of image and object distance relationships.
Something this wide would also always test to have more distortion at near distances, as rectilinear distortion would be recorded by imatest or other software as distortion, when really the center of the chart is just appreciably closer than the corners.
Regards,
Brandon
Matt Grum ·
It’s “couldn’t care less”, Roger!
See this instructional video from the Queen (by way of David Mitchell):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
tuco ·
You said Sony is the only FF tweaking the RAW with in-camera lens corrections. I can’t say for sure but doesn’t the Leica M9 also do the same? I mean, if you put some 3rd party lenses on a M9 and don’t manually set the camera to a good Leica version of the focal length you can get some terrible results like color and vignetting. It feels like the camera is making some corrections here too.
Roger Cicala ·
Tuco, you may be right on Leica, and some do let you set for in-camera lens correction.
Neil Holmes ·
Did you test the Canon and Sigma 35s using an adapter on the same rig?
If not that would be interesting to see if the results are different.
Thanks for the tests.
Brian ·
You want decentering? Try testing the new Batis line of lenses. The 25mm and 85mm both have centering issues.
Raoul ·
Hi Roger and Aaron
Interesting test, once again.
I was just looking at your variation figures:
It looks to me like it is giving more importance to the higher curves (Black and red). Am I right ?
When you look at the Canon and Nikon 50mm, there is not much difference except in the higher curves… But the figures are very different.
Is is meant so or is it a side effect ?
Have a good day
Raoul
Brandon ·
Raoul,
If you are referencing the 35mm lenses, the EF 35/1.4 II has drastically better resolution than the Nikkor lens. The Canon lens has comparable absolute variability, but relative to its higher resolution the variance is smaller. This is reflected in the better score.
Regards,
Brandon
Darin ·
You guys are just amazing, thank you for all the work you put into this!
L.P.O. ·
Brandon,
I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing. My understanding is that m43 cameras that know the distortion characteristics of a specific lens record that information in the RAW image’s metadata, which allows for metadata aware programs like Photoshop to apply distortion correction after demosaicing the image. (They also automatically apply the correction to JPEG images.) To me that is a very different thing than applying distortion correction to the actual RAW pixels which would require quite some trickery in the RGBG mosaic domain.
An example below:
http://www.photozone.de/olympus–four-thirds-lens-tests/740-pana25?start=1
This is a very typical m43 lens from the point of distortion: if you open it with Photoshop or similar, or look at the JPEG the camera produces, you’ll get a negligible amount of distortion. If, however, you open it with a 3rd party RAW processor that ignores the metadata, you’ll get the true performance of the lens, which in this case has almost 3% barrel distortion. Same thing happens with vignetting and chromatic aberration.
(As usually, I reserve the right to be completely wrong in every aspect I write. But I don’t think so.)
Kudo ·
Roger,
Your analysis is causing a stir in the community with the premise that all Sony lenses are junk. What would go along well with you narrative is a visual of a test chart that shows a bad corner or a side. I’m wondering if these sample variation differences are going to be truly visible to end users.
Samuel H ·
Great news!!
My requests here, apart from the 35 and 55 that you already tested, would be: 28mm f/2, 35mm f/2.8, and both Batis lenses. Pretty please 🙂
(you rock)
Thomas ·
When will be see the first camera that does a tilt of the sensor to help with focusing? This is only half joking, by the way. And would not fully help as a corner is not a first-order effect.
Ying ·
Thank you guys for all this work. This is amazing!
As for the results, I’m kind of disappointed. I’ve owned Sony products for some years now and appreciate their innovation but always put up with the high price of their lenses telling myself they were quality lenses. Now it appears it’s not the case. It seems silly yo spend $1000 for a 90mm lens and find out that you might have bad corners. As someone who was saving up to buy the 90mm macro, I’m definitely having second thoughts.
David Kilpatrick ·
I’m slightly surprised that the OLAF bench only tests to 20mm radius from axis. This omits >2mm of extreme corner measurement on the 24 x 36mm sensor, which many find important – sudden death of detail in the corners is a common lens limitation. However, it’s a bit worse than this, as IBIS requires a larger image circle. The sensor can offset itself several mm from the axis (even in APS-C cameras, ±5mm, not sure how far the full frame SS moves) meaning that under many conditions where stabilisation is active part of the exposure may move the imaged area beyond the 43.26 (44mm) required circle (and well beyond your 40mm circle). In theory there are no conditions where SS exposures commences with the sensor off-axis, but in practice most Sony owners know this is not true. Using lenses with very tight image circles like the CZ 16-80mm on APS-C, owners encountered occasional strong vignetting to one corner on random frames, and the cause was that the sensor was not centred when exposure commenced. This happens especially with motordrive sequences using long lenses at marginal shutter speed (say 1/125 with a 300mm lens) as the sensor does not suddenly jerk back to axis position – same for video capture, the SS always floats back to axis and may spend some time off axis.
For OSS lenses, the circle of coverage naturally has to be larger than 44mm as the stabilisation group may cause the entire field to move though mechanical baffles can trim this. However, as with IBIS, there are conditions where an offset subcircle of the lens coverage may be centred on the sensor, and may also move during the exposure. This is actually one good reason for leaving barrel distortion slightly undercorrected in the lens, and correcting in raw. When either IBIS or OSS moves the recorded area outward from the axis of a non-isometric wide angle view, the subject detail will change scale and in theory this may degrade the corner and edge sharpness of any (super to ultra) wide-angle view taken using stabilisation.
As a final point, these lenses do not have a fixed infinity focus (as you point out, they don’t even focus on anything at all when not powered up as groups or elements are parked – owners can test this by rotating their E-mount lens a tiny bit after depressing the release catch, while looking through the finder with release without lens enabled – when the lens loses power, you see the world go very blurry). The actual position of the elements/groups and their calibration to infinity is performed by the camera via its sensor after you mount the lens and switch on. Sony E-mount bodies and lenses are not very precisely made, because this process allows for at least ±0.2mm variation in sensor to flange collimation (that’s from my measurements) and possibly even more. I would not be surprised if the system permits up to ±0.5mm. Since the whole design is intended to be self-calibrating and all the lenses focus beyond infinity and also seem in many cases to allow a close focus than the AF confirmation range, how do you get the information from the OLAF sensor to be processed by the camera? I suspect you can’t, and rely on a kind manual magnified live view to achieve an optical collimator infinity setting – which is not exactly the same as a true infinity. Minolta and Sony A-mount lenses are not collimated at infinity but at a specific distance on the original Minolta bench, which I believe is just short of 3 metres. I have no idea what standard Sony, and/or Zeiss working with Sony, actually use.
You may therefore be testing a lens outside the parameters of on-camera initialisation, though since your rig will have a precise 18mm register, fixed focal lengths should be perfectly handled. Be very careful with wide angle zooms. I recently went through a process of investigating various Sigma 17-35mm lenses after seeing a huge difference between two samples, and it turned out to be a simple variation in the collimation – if the focusing scale was on infinity and the focus was also infinity, the lenses were near perfect – but if the shimming meant the lens scale showed 1.5m (as was common!) when focus was infinity, the outer field would be hopelessly blurred, due to incorrect interaction of the floating/zoom groups and the focusing group (owners of the classic Minolta 24mm Variable Field Curvature 24mm and 35mm designs will understand why – and it’s even worse at 17mm with zoom groups to take into account). A poor lens could be rendered excellent by nothing more than adding a .2mm shim. Given the variability of collimation/register in Sony E/FE bodies – great for keeping costs down and making sensor setup easy – I wonder if some practical variation in results, outside the variability you have found working to a fixed register, might not also be added to the mix.
Andrew ·
When I compare your review of the Sony 90mm Macro to this analysis-
http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Sony-FE-90mm-f2.8-Macro-G-OSS-lens-review-Outstanding-optical-performance
– I am puzzled and struggle to understand the vastly different conclusions.
It seems like these reviews are talking about two completely different lenses.
BTW, I recently rented this lens from LR and on an A7R II body it performed exceptionally.
Roger Cicala ·
Andrew, I totally agree! That’s what makes all this interesting. Very different tests, very different results.
Marcelobtp ·
Hi Roger, i’ve been suspecting from sony cooked raws since the first mirrorless, but it probably comes from the P&S departament since ever.
I would really like you to test the loxias vs the old zeiss with almost the same optical formula, they said they are optimized for the new sensors, but maybe they are the same with just cooked raws.
Thank you very much for this work, i have great admiration for people who are passionate for what they do without thinking on how much money or if they will receive money for it.
greg ·
Very interesting article as always Roger.
Look forward to the next one
greg
MarceloBTP ·
Thanks you very much for the information Roger.
Will you add the Loxias later?
I really admire your passion and the act of sharing this to the public.
Thank you again!
Peter Honka ·
for me the sigma 35mm f1.4 variance looks much worse than the sonys… from the diamgram. i am wrong?
Roger Cicala ·
Peter, if you are speaking of variance, they are about the same. MTF, the Sigma is superior.
David ·
I think the lens correctiondata is written in the raw file. But the raw is not altered imho. Also would it be nice if you would test Sony a-mount lenses since I have had a bad experience with a 24-70 f/2.8 lens (right vs. left side sharpness from 50-70 mm) and would like to see the results on a-mount compared to ie. Nikon. A- mount should alsobe easier to test.
Best regards David
Aaron Ashley ·
Not sure what you built here but your results are completely oppossite of what DX0mark found.
For instance they found that the sony fe 35 1.4 was about 50% sharper then the sigma wide open(findings that have been confirmed by various anecdotal reports and reviews attesting to the sharpness of the lens)
The positioned the 90mm fe as the sharpest lens they have ever tested.. Again the nearly surgical sharpness of that lens has been attested to by numerous anecdotal reports and reviews.
I think its clever that you put 2mm of optical glass in the pathway of the lens because “most sony lenses seemed to benefit from it” but I think maybe your system just isn’t doing exactly what you think its doing. Looks great, very frankenstein but I think you should be looking at what other testers are getting and if your results aren’t lining up you should ask whether your actually testing what you think you are testing.
Cheers,
Aaron
So can you provide an
Roger Cicala ·
Aaron, my results are often very different from DxO. We’re testing entirely different things and different aspects of the lens. If you understand optics and the testing involved, it gives people the opportunity to see more than one aspect of the lens. For people into that, reading and comparing what all the sites say is important; there’s a ton of good information. If you want to simply go with “73.4 rating means it is a better lens than this one with a 68.6 rating” then you should find single site you like and go with what they say.
With all respect, though, I’ve spent years not only looking at what the other testers are getting, but doing those tests (both Imatest and DxO). I moved on to a more expensive method of testing (the optical bench) because of the limitations I found in that testing. If you look around, you’ll find I’ve also tested the 90mm on Imatest, so I’m aware.
As I say on my site dozens of times, I’m not a lens reviewer. I’m an investigator. People like reading along with my investigations so I publish them. If a lot of people don’t read what I write very thoroughly and jump to conclusions, there’s not much I can do about it.
Lynn Allan ·
I’m wondering what LR does with out-of-spec Sony lenses that aren’t adjustable. Do you return them for a replacement?
The question is related to possible purchase of a Sony lens thru the “Rent and Keeper” program and/or LensAuthority. Would such a Sony purchase result in ownership of a lens that was within spec?
Brandon ·
David,
The data is gathered with a Trioptics ImageMaster, not OLAF. OLAF is essentially a reversed MTF bench, but the MTF cannot be measured using OLAF as some parameters necessary to MTF calculation are not measured (e.g. magnification).
Concerns over the image circle are certainly valid, but keep that hard vignetting you mentioned in mind. If the lenses were measured out to 22mm and based on the loose centering of the bayonet relative to the optical axis you find that corners vignette, or worse you measure the point where it transitions into vignetting, this is going to grossly skew the average and variance data.
While “as built” performance, especially with these loosely assembled/toleranced lenses is very far from the nominal performance, we do generally see the variance of pretty much *every* lens be more or less smooth, i.e. there are no sudden large swings up and down in the variance. This is largely to do with how aberrations of non symmetric systems work, but is far outside the purview of a comment here. If you are interested in that sort of thing, read into NAT, esp. applied to freeform optics. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25401809
Mechanical considerations are certainly valid, but the method of an MTF bench is rather robust and based on having the lens be confocal with a microscope objective. Variance in the location of infinity on the scale doesn’t really come into play, as it is not used to focus, rather the actual image from the lens is.
Regards,
Brandon
tn1krr ·
Aaron,
dxomark most certainly has not found Sony 35/1.4 to be sharper than Sigma Art 35/1.4. To my eye when both lenses are put in front of a same 36 MP AA-less sensor the result match Roger’s findings. Nor is the FE 90/2.8 sharpest lens they have tested, it is the sharpest FE lens they have tested. Have a look at yourself, Sigma 35 on D810 vs Sony 35 on A7R. Measurements->Sharpness->Profiles under the link below, Sigma is way sharper on open apertures and Sony does not catch it even stopping down.
http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare/Side-by-side/Sony-FE-Carl-Zeiss-Distagon-T-STAR-35mm-F14-ZA-on-Sony-A7R-versus-Sigma-35mm-F14-DG-HSM-A-Nikon-on-Nikon-D810__1518_917_1057_963
My 90/2.8 Macro is very very good at close distances, but at infinity my Batis 85/1.8 is noticeably better.
Andrew ·
Excellent review and looking forward for the rest of the FE mount lens. Thanks!
Charlie Webster ·
I hope in future you will add f/4 and f/5.6 on these lenses. Some of use do shoot landscapes 😉
TY so much for all your contributions to our knowledge, Roger.
Roger Cicala ·
Charlie, we will. First step is to get a wide-open database, then we’ll go back and do stop downs. I have all the new Zeiss and the Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 VR to do this week, we’ll get back to Sony next week.
Charlie Webster ·
Regarding the “glass in the path”
“My best guess, and it’s just a guess, is that their exit pupil is further to the rear than some of the other lenses. It’s also very possible that the shorter flange-to-sensor distance (18mm for Sony, 44mm for Canon) makes the lenses more sensitive to glass in the optical pathway.”
This does not make sense to me (which admitedly is not the perfect meter). Do you put glass in the Path of a 50 APO Leica? Any Rangefinder lens? Are not the issues you mention the same with M240?
I suspect it must be the cover many of us have had Kolari remove. For me, this mod has made a large difference in performance with many legacy lenses, not just RF wides on original A7.
Charlie
Roger Cicala ·
Charlie, we know the glass has a major effect on wide aperture lenses with a short exit pupil (complex optical formula thing – not a physical measurement). Rangefinder and most legacy lenses benefit from removal of glass because they were designed for film with no glass in the path. Digital lenses are generally designed for glass in the path, because there will always be cover glass. The Kolari modification makes the camera much better with the classic film lenses that have short exit pupil distances.
scott kirkpatrick ·
Leica has stated on a few occasions that only vignetting and color shift corrections are done on the raw file. These only change the pixel intensities at specific points, without shifting image information from one pixel to another. Olympus doesn’t say what is done for the raw file, but when I use CaptureOne to develop OM-D raw files, I see a whole list of lens profiles, generally involving only distortion correction. The tool presents a choice of correcting to the manufacturer-specified 100% or less, if you choose, but it doesn’t say what percentage amount of correction is being applied. To estimate that, you simply slide the distortion correction back to zero and eyeball the result. I can be surprisingly large. For example, the 12-40/2.8 PRO lens from Olympus has significant barrel distortion at the wide end (12 to 14 mm) but little visible distortion at 18 mm and above. The 7-14/2.8 is really distorted at 7 (I’d guess nearly 10%) but sliding the CaptureOne generic correction to 80% neutralizes it. That lens has no COne profile at the moment. Applying distortion correction at this point is not as harmful, since the image can be shifted after the demosaicing of the Bayer filter information is all done, and each pixel has RGB values.
Does LensRental carry M43 lenses such as the PRO series of zooms, the 85/1.8 and the PanaLeica 25/1.4 or some of the 1.2 and 0.95’s? Would love to see what their native, uncorrected qualities are.
scott
Roger Cicala ·
Scott, good points, thank you. We carry all of those lenses but testing m4/3 just has been on the back burner most of the time. We’re getting their, though.
Charlie Webster ·
Roger, you are our hero. I’m really looking forward to copy variations on M lenses, both Leica and Zeiss. Someday. But just to be clear, in testing any old M lens, say a 50 cron v4, you would not put glass in the path, right? This would not improve performance for any lens designed for film, correct?
DtEW ·
I don’t know what you’re smoking, Aaron… but your assertions about the DXOMark results for SEL35F14Z vs. the Sigma 35mm f/1.4 Art are easily disproven by a simple visit to that site. Be sure to choose a sensor with the same resolution, i.e. the Sony A7R vs. Nikon D810 that tn1krr linked in his response to you.
I would suggest studying the “Sharpness” tab, with data presented in the “Profiles” format for easy, superimposed comparison.
In fact, you’ve done an excellent job of drawing attention to the fact that in the wide-open state, the SEL35F14Z is in an entirely lower league relative to the Sigma 35mm f/1.4 Art.
Xpanded ·
Great article and great sense of humour – thanks Roger. I cannot quite decide if it will be of any help to you, but if you need peers to discuss you may want to contact Christian Nilsson at http://www.lensfreaks.com. He has been testing lenses on the Hasselblad Lab’s test benches for a decade or more. They are measuring real MTF-values and not just whatever a shelf piece of software (however good) says. He is a great guy too. Always helpful and friendly.
Brandon ·
Scott,
I finished three of M4/3 lenses over the summer. The panasonic 42.5/1.2 as well as the Voigtlander 17.5 and 42.5mm f/0.95 lenses. As far as consistency is concerned, the panasonic is an absolute trainwreck and the voigtlanders are excellent.
Regards,
Brandon
DrJon ·
I haven’t seen anything more on these lenses (did I miss something?) so can I ask if the Panasonic 42.5mm issues were within the lenses or between lenses – so is simply getting one with 4 even corners all you need, or a choice of 18-odd examples, some lens testing machines and a spare week?
DrJon ·
I haven't seen anything more on these lenses (did I miss something?) so can I ask if the Panasonic 42.5mm issues were within the lenses or between lenses - so is simply getting one with 4 even corners all you need, or a choice of 18-odd examples, some lens testing machines and a spare week?
Rob ·
Roger, do you know if interlens variability and iffy construction applies to the 35/2 sonnar lens in the Sony RX1/R? I have noticed my copy to have a tilted focus plane.
Rob
Andrew Dodd ·
FYI,you probably could’ve manufactured your mount breakouts using extension tubes instead of cannibalizing cameras:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56168165
Roger Cicala ·
Andrew, we tried, the extension tubes loosened around the solders with repetetive movements of the bench.
scott kirkpatrick ·
Brandon, thanks for the information about the superfast M43’s. Were the Voightlanders sharp as well as consistent once you got them to, say, f/2.8 or 4.0? Did you write this up and post it somewhere?
scott
Brandon ·
Scott,
The 42.5 is superb across the frame at f/4. The 17.5 improves less so but is “decent.”
Brandon
Taki Tsoni ·
Regarding the results of the 90mm macro, these results are even more baffling than the DxO discrepancy, when compared to your own previous test of the 90mm http://wordpress.lensrentals.com/2015/05/sony-fe-90mm-f2-8-g-oss-resolution-test
I’m seriously baffled here???
Roger Cicala ·
Taki, I’ll repeat for the 432 time: This test is done at infinity on an optical bench. The other test is done at much closer focusing distance with a marcro backlit chart on a camera. If they were the same you should be baffled.
Taki ·
Hi Roger
Apologies for not seeing the other 432 replies! Is it not possible to test macro lenses at their intended focus range? I’d be really interested to see what difference there would be in the results.
AaronClosz ·
Taki,
We do have the capability to measure MTF at finite distances and hope to begin incorporating those results very soon.
Taki ·
Thanks, look forward to it.
Taki ·
Hi Roger
Apologies for not seeing the other 432 replies! Is it not possible to test macro lenses at their intended focus range? I'd be really interested to see what difference there would be in the results.
AaronClosz ·
Taki,
We do have the capability to measure MTF at finite distances and hope to begin incorporating those results very soon.
Lynn Allan ·
Hope I’m wrong, but my speculation is there could be some unhappy Batis owners if and when LR tests the 25mm and 85mm … especially variance between lenses reflecting q/a.
JohnDizzo ·
The optical issues in the copy of the 35/1.4 I just received last week is the reason I even began googling for information on this topic which is what has led me here. I have been on the fence for a few days now about whether to send it back or to ask Sony to check it out. Based on what I have read here though, it appears to be an issue with the lot of them and I should just figure out whether or not softness in the areas of the copy I have are acceptable. lol.
Anyhow, as usual, thank you guys for all the work/testing and insight.
Hakan ·
Hello Roger,
thanks for yet another compherensive study for us, gear freaks…
I’d like to understand your statement about FE35 F1.4, ” a lot of the variance is WITHIN a copy, not just copy-to-copy” .. What do you mean by variance within a copy? Do you mean, with the same lens, some shots show better corner eveness but some shows worse…I think, this is the situation with my FE35…
many thanks for clarification…
Roger Cicala ·
Hakan, I meant that a copy is likely to have a soft side or a soft corner, that it’s not even across the frame.
François ·
Hello !
I just found this article while looking for info about copy variance for Sony EF lenses. I have a question. When buying a lens like the 35mm F1.4, it’s not really to use it for landscape photos. It’s mostly to take shots of the subject at a shorter distance. And mostly at big apertures. So corner sharpness is VERY rarely a problem, but sometimes it’s nice to be able to put the subject on the side of the frame. And using my Contax Zeiss 35mm F1.4, I’m finding it REALLY great for this kind of photo (people at 2 to 5 meters, as well as close up details), but less convincing for landscape photos. Do you think that doing your tests at 5 meters instead of infinite would make a difference ? I would be curious to know your opinion about that.
And talking about variance, the other alternative I have for a bit aperture 35mm is the Sigma lens, now that an adapter will be available. But if I read your charts correctly, the Sigma is even worse for copy variance, am I right ?
I hope the questions are not too silly ! Thanks in advance !
AaronClosz ·
Not silly at all!
Testing at 5 meters should not make much of a difference for a 35mm lens, as the focusing element would not likely have moved much from its infinity position. There would certainly be a big difference at 5 feet however. Combining near and far test results for lens variance is something we intend to do soon enough. As for your alternative, the variance may appear to be worse with the Sigma, but I think this has more to do with the shape of the curve. The score indicates that they are quite even in terms of variance.
François ·
Hello !
I just found this article while looking for info about copy variance for Sony EF lenses. I have a question. When buying a lens like the 35mm F1.4, it's not really to use it for landscape photos. It's mostly to take shots of the subject at a shorter distance. And mostly at big apertures. So corner sharpness is VERY rarely a problem, but sometimes it's nice to be able to put the subject on the side of the frame. And using my Contax Zeiss 35mm F1.4, I'm finding it REALLY great for this kind of photo (people at 2 to 5 meters, as well as close up details), but less convincing for landscape photos. Do you think that doing your tests at 5 meters instead of infinite would make a difference ? I would be curious to know your opinion about that.
And talking about variance, the other alternative I have for a bit aperture 35mm is the Sigma lens, now that an adapter will be available. But if I read your charts correctly, the Sigma is even worse for copy variance, am I right ?
I hope the questions are not too silly ! Thanks in advance !
AaronClosz ·
Not silly at all!
Testing at 5 meters should not make much of a difference for a 35mm lens, as the focusing element would not likely have moved much from its infinity position. There would certainly be a big difference at 5 feet however. Combining near and far test results for lens variance is something we intend to do soon enough. As for your alternative, the variance may appear to be worse with the Sigma, but I think this has more to do with the shape of the curve. The score indicates that they are quite even in terms of variance.
Damir ?olak ·
I just returned the lens for the third time. Did anyone ever find FE 35 1.4 that was ok?
All three had the right 1/3 of picture out of focus.
Roger Cicala ·
I know some people are happy with theirs. Speaking for optical bench testing, we haven’t found one that was perfect on all 4 corners, but the optical bench can see flaws cameras may not see.
Damir ?olak ·
Thank you Roger. I went through three samples, they all had right 1/3 of the picture blurry. If I put focus on the right side, left 2/3 of the picture was blurry.
No other lens I have exhibits the same behaviour.
I would’ve been more than happy to have had just one of the corners out of focus. :-))
It’s good to know there are samples out there that are better than those I had, I’ll keep searching for the “better one.”
Damir Čolak ·
I just returned the lens for the third time. Did anyone ever find FE 35 1.4 that was ok?
All three had the right 1/3 of picture out of focus.
Roger Cicala ·
I know some people are happy with theirs. Speaking for optical bench testing, we haven't found one that was perfect on all 4 corners, but the optical bench can see flaws cameras may not see.
Damir Čolak ·
Thank you Roger. I went through three samples, they all had right 1/3 of the picture blurry. If I put focus on the right side, left 2/3 of the picture was blurry.
No other lens I have exhibits the same behaviour.
I would've been more than happy to have had just one of the corners out of focus. :-))
It's good to know there are samples out there that are better than those I had, I'll keep searching for the "better one."