Autofocus Reality Part 3B: Canon Cameras
Some days it’s good to be a geeky gear-head. This is one of them because a) I finished testing autofocus on all of the Canon camera bodies we had, b) I actually found out some interesting stuff, and c) I got worked up about camera marketers while doing it, so I have my next post in the works already.
Because I’ve been writing this series on the fly (telling you what we found as we found it), I’ll keep going in that fashion and keep the conclusions for the end of the article.

What We’ve Found So Far
In the first Autofocus Reality article, we demonstrated two things:
1. Phase-detection autofocus (even using still targets and center-point only) wasn’t nearly as accurate as contrast detection.
2. The contrast-detection autofocus was about as accurate as the most careful manual focusing.
Part two of the series showed that a few newer lenses did focus as accurately as contrast detection on 5D Mark III cameras but not on 5D Mark II cameras. The third article (part 3A) showed that the newest Canon lenses (40mm f/2.8, 24mm f/2.8 IS, 28mm f/2.8 IS, 70-300mm L IS and 300mm f/2.8 IS II) focus more accurately when mounted to 5D Mark III camera but not on 5D Mark II cameras.
The Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS II, oddly enough, seemed not quite as good as the above lenses, but more accurate than the older ones. Whether this was oddness in my measurements or a real finding, I wasn’t sure.
Since we knew that the newest lenses autofocused accurately on 5DIII but not on 5DII cameras, the next step was obviously to compare an accurate AF lens on different camera bodies to see with which ones it was capable of accuracy.
We expected the 1Dx (which has the same AF system as the 5DIII) would be accurate. We weren’t sure about the others.
Today’s Contestants on The Focus is Right!
We know the Canon 28mm f/2.8 IS II had accurate autofocus on the Canon 5DIII so we chose one copy to be our test lens.
We AF microadjusted each camera to the lens prior to shooting. If the camera did not offer AF microadjustment, we checked the body with the test lens and exchanged it for another copy if the lens back or frontfocused at the test distance.
(Microfocus adjustment makes absolutely no difference in the shot-to-shot variation in AF–it only improves the average value of the group. But I got tired of explaining that to people in the previous articles. It was easier to just do it than to answer another 50 emails.)
We then tested it in our Imatest lab using one copy of each Canon camera we carry. To save you from running amok on the internet, finding out which cameras are how old and have what kind of autofocus, I’ve listed that information in the table below.
| Camera | Year released | Year firmware | AF description | ||||||||
| 1DsIII | Dec-07 | 12/16/09 | 45 point, 19 cross, 26 assist, f/4 at center, dedicated AF processor | ||||||||
| 5D II | Dec-08 | 2/28/12 | 9 point, f/2.8 cross center | ||||||||
| 50D | Dec-08 | 2/28/12 | 9 point cross, dual diagonal center cross | ||||||||
| 7D | Aug-09 | 4/25/11 | 19 point, all cross, center dual diagonal cross (advanced algorithm), first “zone AF” and “spot AF” | ||||||||
| 1DIV | Dec-09 | 3/29/12 | 45 point, 39 cross (f/2.8-f/5.6, f4 at center), first AF expansion camera | ||||||||
| 60D | Aug-10 | 6/19/12 | 9 point, f/2.8 cross center | ||||||||
| T3i | Jan-11 | 1/30/12 | 9 point, f/2.8 cross center | ||||||||
| 1Dx | Mar-12 | 2012 | 61 point reticular, 41 cross type, 5 dual diagonal cross, including center | ||||||||
| 5D III | Mar-12 | 2012 | 61 point reticular, 41 cross type, 5 dual diagonal cross, including center | ||||||||
| T4i | Apr-12 | 2012 | 9 point, f/2.8 dual cross center, hybrid CMOS AF Live View | ||||||||
I suspected that the autofocus improvement we’ve seen had more to do with hardware than firmware, but I listed both year of release and year of latest firmware upgrade for completeness. I also listed the basics of the camera’s AF system, as well as any marketing comments made about it at release like the 7D having “the most advanced AF algorithms.”
My thought going in was the difference would be in hardware not firmware. I don’t think any amount of firmware is going to make the AF sensor on the lower left behave like the one on the lower right, even in center-point, single-shot mode.

The Results
In the lens variation article, we used the standard deviation (SD) to measure how accurately the camera focused: Softer focus results in lower Imatest values. As an example, we’ve put up a graph of Imatest values for the 5D Mk II versus the 5D Mk III below.

As you can see, the 5D Mk III shots (red square) are all very similar. The 5D Mk II shots (blue diamonds) are more spread out: The variation in shot-to-shot focus is greater.
In this example, the SD of the 5D Mk III samples was 17 lp/ih, while the SD of the 5D Mk II was 38.5. Those are similar to the numbers we’ve seen over and over—accurate focusing combinations have SDs in the teens while less accurate ones have SDs in the 30s.
Rather than clog up the post with a lot more graphs, I’ll list the SDs of the various cameras with the 28mm f/2.8 IS lens in the table below.
| Camera | SD |
| 1DsIII | 29 |
| 5D II | 38.5 |
| 50D | 34 |
| 7D | 41 |
| 1DIV | 22 |
| 60D | 34 |
| T3i | 41 |
| 1Dx | 17 |
| 5D III | 17 |
| T4i | 29 |
It’s a little confusing. There’s a range of variation, of course. But clearly the 5DIII and 1Dx do better than the other cameras, while the 1D Mk IV seems to be a bit between those two and the rest of the pack.
It seems a little clearer to me if we graph the standard deviations and separate the cameras by type (more expensive at the top, less expensive at the bottom.) The oldest cameras in both groups are on the left, while the newest are on the right.

A couple of points are worth making.
The graph of the more expensive cameras seems to show a pretty logical progression. The 1Ds III is by far the oldest, having been around since 2007. But it included every possible AF technology of the day, including a separate AF processing chip. The 5D Mk II, even on its release, was known to have “consumer-grade” autofocus.
Despite my well-recognized modesty, I will also point out that when the 5D Mk III was first released, and Canon fanboys were dropping off cliffs right and left, I said “the 5D III is no minor-upgrade camera; it’s an entirely new camera using the old camera’s name”. Its autofocus system is certainly not a minor upgrade–it’s moved over to the big-boy camera side.
I had hoped the T4i might be more accurate than it was, at least with new lenses. It does seem more accurate than the other consumer / prosumer cameras in phase detection, but it’s not nearly as good as the 1Dx or 5D III.
I assume that it’s new hybrid LiveView system does not carry over to create phase-detection AF. I will say, in it’s defense, that when focusing in LiveView it is obviously faster than and just as accurate as any of the other cameras, including the 5DIII and 1Dx.
So Why Could This Be?
All this autofocus stuff 1) gave me a headache and 2) made me rather curious and uncertain.
I started doing a simple demonstration of what I already knew: Phase-detection AF isn’t as accurate as contrast-detection AF. But then I got results that indicated sometimes it is just as accurate as LiveView. But you have to have a certain camera and a certain lens or it doesn’t happen.
This didn’t make much sense to me.
I would have understood if each generation of newer cameras and lenses got a little better. Or if a new camera or lens was dramatically better. But why a rather sudden change, and why did you need both a new camera and a new lens?
I spent a fair amount of time emailing with Dave Etchells of The Imaging Resource and SLRGear.com who was kind enough to bounce ideas back and forth with me. His thoughts sent me on the right track for figuring this out.
I started off by trying to find out how long it took for an autofocus improvement to go from idea to released-to-the-public. I found one answer in a Canon patent from 2003 describing combined phase / contrast-detection AF in the camera mated to a lens using a stepper motor.
Which we saw … oh, yeah. Now. With the Canon T4i / EOS-M sensors and new STM motored lenses.
One thing of interest in this patent application, tucked away in the background section, is the following statement:
… though the prior art indicates a method for realizing high speed and high precision of autofocusing at the same time, it does not accompany a lens drive control for realizing this and thus does not adequately realize […] high precision of autofocusing.
In other words, back in 2003, Canon recognized that a high-accuracy AF system in the camera required a more accurate lens drive to yield precise autofocus. You can’t have one without the other.
Suddenly the need for both a new camera and a new lens to get accurate autofocus began to make sense. But wait, the patent was talking about using a stepper motor to achieve accurate AF. We did find the 40mm pancake (stepper motor) was more accurate. But we also found that the new 24mm, 28mm f/2.8 IS and 300mm f/2.8 IS II lenses were more accurate. Yet they don’t have stepper motors.
Then I read on a bit further in the patent:
In order to achieve this objective, this invention provides a camera system comprising: a first focus detection unit, a second focus detection unit, a stepping motor that drives a focusing lens, … or a rotation detector, which detects the rotation … of the motor. . . _The control circuit performs closed-loop control, based on the output of the rotation detector to contro_l the motor.
The wording of this patent, back in 2003, suggests that closed-loop was not how AF worked at that time. It was largely open loop. The camera took a measurement and told the lens where it should go. Done.
This is backed up by a lot of other information, including statements in Canon’s “EF Lens Work III” and quotes made by a lot of people who would have known.
It’s clear that later AF systems were closed loop (the camera double checked where the lens had gone), although exactly when and where that change occurred I don’t know. But this probably explains the lengthy, and now largely meaningless, debates about whether systems were open or closed-loop: They used to be open. Now some (probably most) are closed.
More to the point, though, is the comment that a rotation detector would be needed in lenses driven by ultrasonic motors to increase accuracy of the focusing movement.
If this is the case, then the newer Canon lenses should definitely have a rotation detector built into them. We know there are rotation detectors in many lenses released after 2000, but if they are in older lenses we can’t identify them, so this fits too. (As an aside, I am particularly skilled in finding them because usually if you touch them with your fingers the lens won’t focus anymore and the unit has to be replaced.)

Just to be certain, I asked Aaron to find an excuse to take apart one of the new lenses. Or failing that, I told Aaron to take one apart and not tell Tyler or Drew, who never really believe we can put them back together correctly.
The result: Aaron checked and the newer lenses did have rotation detectors.
There was one other big hint hiding in plain sight in Canon’s resource article on precision cross-type AF sensors. The article states that the farther apart each pair of AF sensors are (each pair compares phase from opposite sides of the lens) the more accurate the sensor. It also states only the 5D Mk III and 1Dx have them. I italicized some of the quote for emphasis:
[…]simply by reading which pixels on each sensor line are being struck by light, the AF system can tell instantly what direction to move the lens in for proper focus, and by how much to move it… Canon EOS SLRs with high-precision AF sensors simply move the pairs of sensors much farther apart, and accordingly, the AF information can be more finely broken-down and reacted to.
The 5DIII and 1DX have f/5.6 cross-type sensors (most previous cross-type required f/2.8 or faster lenses). The central AF sensors in these cameras also have diagonal cross sensors. The article continues:
For pros who prefer to use the center AF point, simply manually selecting it [… ] gives the user the highest precision AF possible with these cameras (assuming an f/2.8 or faster lens is being used). And, with their unique diagonal cross-type layout, the AF points are much more likely to latch-on to typical horizontal or vertical subject details.
In Summary
As it turns out, my little tests just confirm things that were already published (if obscurely.)
The two newest Canon cameras have more accurate phase-detection sensors than their previous cameras. The newest lenses have more accurate focus movement (or provide more accurate focus movement feedback, or both) that takes advantage of those sensors.
Older cameras don’t have accurate enough AF sensors to take advantage of the new lenses’ capabilities. Older lenses can’t move their focusing elements with enough accuracy to take advantage of the new cameras’ accurate sensors.
It’s rather sad (given the amount of other work that’s piled up during this little series) that I didn’t find this information until after I’d done all this testing, but it’s rather a testament to our times. There’s so much marketing drivel and useless verbiage thrown about that the marketing noise drowns out the actual useful information the camera makers offer us.
But that’s the topic of another blog post in which I will take personal offense at the marketing crap that’s been shoveled our way at an ever-increasing rate.
I don’t believe we photographers are nearly as stupid as the marketers seem to think we are. In the meantime, while I’m on this rant, I highly recommend Thom Hogan’s very funny look at camera icons “A Different Kind of Focus.” Thom writes better stuff sitting on the tarmac waiting for takeoff than I do at my desk.
And I guess, given all the marketing fluff, I wouldn’t have really believed “better autofocus” if I hadn’t seen it with my own tests.
I’ve heard it before and it wasn’t so. Not to mention I doubt seriously we’d have seen the marketers say, “better autofocus…but not with the lenses you already have.” So maybe this is worthwhile after all.
Otherwise I might have put my trusty old 85mm f/1.8 on a 5D III and thought “not better at all, they’re lying to me again.”
Roger Cicala (with thanks to Aaron Closz and Dave Etchells)
Lensrentals.com
August 2012
180 Comments
Doug ·
Great series of articles Roger, as always! I always enjoy reading your work as you are so thorough with every aspect of what you are doing.
So, I’m noticing that the 7D is tied for the highest standard deviation in your Imatest values chart – when you say “Older cameras don’t have accurate enough AF sensors to take advantage of the new lenses’ capabilities. Older lenses can’t move their focusing elements with enough accuracy to take advantage of the new cameras’ accurate sensors” does that include the 7D as one of the ‘older cameras’? And if so, what does this mean for 7D users – is it worth upgrading/using any of the newer lenses as a result of this focus inaccuracy? Or are we still going to be far better off with the improved glass, despite the inability to take advantage of the newer focus capabilities?
Roger Cicala ·
Doug,
I wish I understood the 7D system better. I’m not sure if it was an experimental dead end, or maybe is improved and just not in ways that this kind of test (center point AF on still subjects) detects. Certainly what I read from 7D users seems to show that there’s a learning curve with it’s AF system, but otherwise opinions are pretty wide spread. A few people love its AF, a lot don’t. I expect that means it’s good for certain situations more than others, but I don’t know what those are.
Roger
Maiaibing ·
Fits my experience with the 300 f/2.8 IS L I, 35L and 135L which do not seem to focus notably better with the 5Diii than the 5Dii.
Andre ·
Roger, this is really fantastic stuff — thank you! Any plans to check on the accuracy of mirrorless cameras’ CDAF?
Roger Cicala ·
Andre I’ll do Nikon next, and then go on to mirrorless.
markb3699 ·
As a former marketing writer (now a full time photographer) I’d like to point out that the reason for all the marketing hype may be due to the fact that the people writing Canon’s marketing content may simply not fully understand the products. I don’t think many product managers don’t understand product lines they’re responsible for with great depth. It didn’t bother some of the large companies that I worked for that I didn’t ucomprehend their products in fine detail, only that I could explain them to a reasonable degree and make brochures and data sheets read smoothly.
Roger Cicala ·
Mark, I couldn’t agree more. My favorite example, now mercifully pulled off of their website, was a Tamron blurb for an f/5.6 Vibration Control lens that said “Vibration Control allows you to freeze motion, making it perfect for athletic events”, or something very similar.
Maji ·
Great series Roger. You are not only technically gifted (an euphemism for techno geek), but you write well too. Not many techno geeks can claim that. You maybe in the cross hair of the marketing consultants as you are trying to cull out their babble. Keep this up… I mean keeping us educated and informed photographers 🙂
Jos ·
…It’s a little confusing. There’s a range of variation, of course. But clearly the 5DII and 1Dx do better than the other cameras, while the 1D Mk IV seems to be a bit between those two and the rest of the pack…
5DII must be 5DIII
Will ·
Thank you very much for this very interesting review . I keep my eyes on your future stuff on Nikon and mirorless gears !
hwyhobo ·
Good stuff, Roger! Having had to make sense out of technical publications for most of my life (I work in technical training, so I actually have to understand it, not just memorize keywords), it is a pleasure to read a straight-shooting article.
Jon ·
Any hope for a Sony test?
Roger Cicala ·
Hi Jon,
I’ll certainly do NEX when I try to test mirrorless, but I don’t have a good comfort level with alpha autofocus. I’m afraid I might make technical errors since I’ve never done this with SLT mirror cameras.
David ·
Great article! I’m sure the engineers from Nikon, Sony et al. are just as interested in this as we photographers are.
Shane Pope ·
very interesting and informative Roger well done!!!!
Roger do you happen to have a list of Canon lens that have the Rotation detector or can you point us to a list if one is already published else where?
warm regards
Shane
Roger Cicala ·
Hi Shane,
I do not have such a list. We only happen to know if we’ve looked inside and seen it. And it’s possible for us to look inside and miss it if we haven’t completely disassembled the lens.
Mel Gross ·
This is interesting, As it follows CNC machine tool practice, something that all camera and lens manufacturers are very familiar with.
There are two types of CNc machines. The least expensive ones use stepper motors to move the table, quill, or forth or fitth motion. These are accurate enough for those machi ES, and can drive 0.001″ accuracy. On very well made machines, it can even go down to 0.0005″. But that where it ends. And today, a half thou. Isn’t all that great. But this is an open process, no checking of where things are.
Better machines use servo motors. As can be understood from the name, these motors use a feedback loop going back to the computer, which knows where they are at all times. These machines are also made more precisely. They can have an accuracy to 0.000005″, or even twice that—one hundred thou. Inch! That’s accurate! A compromise has arisin more recently that uses steppers with feedback, and is I between the two, though closer to traditional steppers. Still, it can get to a “tenth”, as we call it, which means a ten thousandth.
So what Canon is saying here makes great sense, but requires a different way of thinking, and a higher level of manufacturing reliability, something we’ve seen hit within the mid, 90’s. It’s too bad that it takes so long, but figuring out how to do this without breaking the bank isn’t easy. In addition, sensor making has hit a new high during the middle of the last decade, which has allowed this from the other end.
It’s good to see it in action in cameras, though too bad that all of our lenses will need replacing (assuming that the mis focussing really has any effect most of the time in the real world of shooting.).
Mel Gross ·
Oops! Sorry for the typo’s. I’m typing on my iPad which is on my lap, in a moving vehicle, and didn’t notice the errors until
posted.
Michael B ·
Thanks for the insights and your article!
I always wondered why my 40D needs 2 or 3 AF actions (manually induced by half-pressing the shutter butten) before further AF trials gave the same result (e.g. with f/2.0 100). Since I observed this I trigger the AF several times until I do not hear any noises from the USM drives.
I think that I induced something like a feedback loop manually (by changing my brains “software” for photographing) – perhaps this might be an idea to recheck the older cameras and compare the AF consistency with that of the newer ones.
Best – Michael
Tern ·
“The 5DIII and 1DX have f/5.6 cross-type sensors (most previous cross-type required f/2.8 or faster lenses). ”
Any chance you’d test other brands, such as Nikon/Pentax whom have had f5.6 cross-type sensors for generations now, and most interestingly with the new f8 cross-type sensors in the D800?
It’d be interesting to see if the theoretical choice of ‘accuracy (if you have f2.8)’ (Canon) vs ‘availability (cross point with any lens)’ (Nikon/Pentax) actually matches to reality.
CarVac ·
I thought that most ring-USM lenses have at least a coarse sort of distance sensor for flash use, but I guess that’s not the same as this more precise sensor for autofocus feedback.
Murray Scott ·
Quick question. I suspect your manual focus tests were done using either live view, or the standard Canon-installed focus screen…which I find to be pathetically poor for manual focusing. Do you think manual focusing would improve significantly, using an after market focus screen such as that supplied by KatzEye? I’m a 7D user. The work you folks put into these articles is greatly appreciated!
Roger Cicala ·
Murray,
The manual focus were all using 10X Live view. I’m not very accurate through the viewfinder, although I’m a lot better with a focusing screen. I don’t think I’d be as accurate as with Live View even with a screen, but I could be wrong. And my eyes are old, others would be better than me.
Zak ·
First: Thanks a lot for (not just) this very enlightening series of posts. I know no camera or lens review site whose operators could not learn a lot from your systematic approach to pretty much anything.
Second: I’d imagine that the standard deviation values are difficult to compare across different cameras because their sensors have different resolutions. If the lens manages to outperform the sensor, resolution-wise, there’s some space for the focus motor to move without imatest reporting much (or at least not as much as otherwise). I’d also be interested in knowing if the resolution figure is actually properly linear with the focus error.
Not that I want to cause you more work, but it would seem that the proper way of testing which camera supports the feature would be to compare two lenses (an old one, a new one) with similar optical properties (i.e. best achievable center sharpness) on each camera and see which bodies will show a difference. That way you can separate the difference in the autofocus procedure from the difference in the sensors. … having said that, it might also be overkill 🙂
Another data figure I’d be interested in: Is the new autofocus procedure faster or slower than the old one, or neither?
My background is in science and engineering (including optimization), and the computationally cheapest algorithm for minimizing a function is the Newton method, where you have the value of the function (offset on the AF sensor) and the gradient (how much movement gives me which change in the offset?), or some approximation of it. You compute how fare you need to go, then re-evaluate and so on until you’re satisfied. As you’ve shown, most cameras seem not to re-evaluate too much in favour of being done faster (or their AF-sensors are not that accurate?). But if you can re-evaluate on the fly, while the lens is still moving, and if you get feedback from the lens about how far it moved in reaction to the last input and what that did to the AF sensor offset — you have more data on your hands and can move from first-order approximation (Newton) to second-order or even some much fancier algorithms to know much more precisely how to correlate input and output.
Zak ·
oh, oooh!
One more thing! I’d love to see whether 3rd party lenses can also do this trick (but suspect it will take them some time to do so, if they manage at all). Even if they can’t: Is there a significant difference in the phase detect AF scatter between Canon and third party lenses?
Roger Cicala ·
Zak, I don’t know if they are worse (maybe, or more likely some but not others). I can’t think of any way they’ll be better.
Roger
Ethan ·
It’s not totally clear to me how much of a difference we’re talking about here. Is the variance noticeable shot-to-shot? How much of it is related to your focusing methodology (spin ring, refocus – I know you mentioned better results just by hammering the autofocus button a few times in a row)? If I have a 5DMIII, is it worth waiting for a version III of the f2.8 70-200 w/ IS or is that just silly?
Roger Cicala ·
Ethan, I think waiting is silly. We’ve all been getting by pretty well with what we’ve had. Not to mention these are lab tests – the real world doesn’t have a test target on it, and things aren’t as neat and clean as the lab was. My ‘keeper rate’ is about 80% out in the real world. Maybe with this new equipment it will be 90% or maybe 82%. I wouldn’t drop good lenses over it.
best,
Roger
Wilba ·
Interesting stuff, great to see rigorous testing in the AF area.
It’s important to identify which control process you’re talking about. The Ishikawa patent is about the control system _within_the_lens_, which interprets commands from the control system _within_the_camera_. It’s the second system which has been debated at length and proven to be closed-loop from at least the 20D onward (see http://www.dpreview.com/articles/5402438893/busted-the-myth-of-open-loop-phase-detection-autofocus).
Whether the control system in the lens is open or closed-loop doesn’t make any difference to the question of whether the control system in the body is open or closed-loop, and it’s invalid to make conclusions about the second from an old patent about the first.
adrian ·
Good job! Thanks!
RP ·
Great job Roger. I always realized my 7D, and my 5DMKII too, were not so precise to auto-focus. I think inter shot variation should be software rather than hardware dependent. The only thing I was surprised was to know that T4i does not focus so precise as we should expect from the acquisition of the new sensor technology!
Robbie ·
The older AF lenses definitely have a rotational position sensor. It may not be as precise as the newer ones but it exists. I have seen it inside a Canon 50 1.4
It looks like the below image, with brushes riding against traces along the barrel (measuring resistance that varies as it is turned, ie a potentiometer).
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2586/img9645x.jpg
The EOS control scheme must be closed loop on all the lenses… when the lens is installed or switched from MF it knows where the focus is rotationally. Otherwise it would need to drive to MFD or infinity focus first to establish a known starting position, which from experience doesn’t occur. (Similarly for focus distance for flash in MF mode.)
It is likely the newer lenses have sensors with more angular resolution.
K D Sandmann ·
Thank you for yet another great article.
To some extent it seems people using older glass are now faced with updating the glass to justify & fully benefit from buying new bodies.
It would be nice if Canon would give us a list of optimal combinations but I doubt that would help their sales. O well. 🙂
mantra ·
Hi
thanks for this very interesting article, rally an excellent investigation!
i shoot canon but may i ask a question?
did you compare the canon and nikon Phase-detection autofocus?
thanks a lot!
Nqina Dlamini ·
You’ve put in a bit of a pickle, I was ready to pull the trigger on a 7D.
From what I can deduce, I can either save up for a used 1D MKIV or go the 5D III route.
Thanks for this.
Dave Coombes ·
Great article. I have been confused about what Canon has been doing with their releases over the last few years but this makes some quite dull products like the 28mm 2.8 seem much more interesting.
I do wonder whether third party manufacture will be able to use this at all and whether they even know Canon have been doing this.
Cheers, Dave.
tenaiko ·
Roger,
thank you so much for this fantastic write-up! I am particularly intrigued by the results for the 7D, which appears to be something of a black horse in Canon’s line-up: it uses an AF system that was something of a departure for Canon at the time (and supposedly designed to be best the ‘consumer-grade’ AF they had just put into the 5D II), but in your testing its (first-generation) ‘improved’ AF system seems to be neither here nor there. As you are probably aware, Canon is set to release a major firmware upgrade for the 7D this month that is not only supposed to improve the camera’s performance in various ways (making it faster in some circumstances for example), but also (a rarity, at least for Canon) adds features that were inherent in the hardware (such as audio levels) but that Canon decided to reveal, dare I say Magic-Lantern-style, only now.
Now here’s the rub: If I read your assumptions about open-loop and closed-loop AF correctly, it would seem that changing AF performance from one to the other could well be achieved with a firmware update, at least with a camera body whose processors are fast enough pull off such a feat. Said firmware update would allow the camera to
1) recognize the ability of the new-generation lenses to provide the position of the USM motor with its rotation detector and
2) if such a lens is detected, change the camera’s AF system so as to provide a ‘closed-loop’ measurement: AF – send data to lens – read rotation data back – AF again – send data to lens etc.
At least at first glance, a firmware update should suffice to add that capability to the camera – provided that Canon wants to provide that feature to the users of a specific camera model in their line-up and that the camera is in fact fast enough to deal with the back and forth.
It might be worth checking your results with the 7D once that big firmware upgrade has landed—what do you think?
Barnett ·
Roger, you are confusing closed loop AF with closed loop motor control. There is a HUGE difference between the two. Let me try to explain.
Consider an electric motor driving the lens focus position. When you apply power to this motor it starts running at a speed that is difficult to predict. So after some period of time you would have no idea how far the motor has moved. So you need some form of sensor to tell you (ie measure) the current position of the lens. Using this feedback sensor you can adjust the power of the motor (faster/slower/forwards/backwards) to accurately position the lens where you want it. This is called closed loop motor control.
A stepper motor on the other hand works differently. It has discrete “steps”. The size of these steps are known and fixed. So if you want the motor to move 10mm, and you know each step is 1mm, you tell the motor to take 10 steps, and it will take 10 steps, and you know exactly how far it moved. This is open loop because you don’t need to measure.
There are various advantages and disadvantages to these two types of motors. One advantage of the stepper motor is that it is a much simpler open loop system. One disadvantage is that you cannot position it in fractions of a step, so the accuracy is always limited to the step size. There are some other advantages/disadvantages too, but I won’t do into that now.
The point I am trying to make is that the patent you mentioned simply listed these two types of motor control. It has NOTHING to do with the AF control loop which has to be closed loop. Always.
Armis ·
Well, I thouroughly enjoyed this series of articles. Some things are actually counter-intuitive: in those tests, the 7D’s AF I’ve heard so many people gush about doesn’t seem to out-perform the 5D2’s old, consumer-grade AF (though I understand the 7D’s AF strengths are in tracking subjects in motion, so the test may not be fully representative); in addition, my 5D2 focuses way better with my 70-200 f/4 IS (where it can’t use the center cross type) than with my 50 f/1.4. Weird.
Raoul J ·
Well done !
I like your scientific mind ! Experimentation, intuition and theory… Great !
Now several thoughts about it
1. I guess you realize everybody is now expecting you to list all lenses that actually focus better with 5DIII and 1DX ?
2. Isn’t that the same list than the list of lenses where EXIF data for distance is available ? (= lenses compatible with E-TTL II flash metering, which make use of distance).
I know 50mm 1.4 and 24mm 2.8 doesn’t provide the distance but 85mm 1.8 does… as does 70-200 2.8L IS (I). So your answer will probably be “no”.
3. If I understand you correctly, your results mean that the focus will actually be better on 1DX and 5DIII with lenses without feedback if you double click. Am I right ? Could you test it ?
Roger Cicala ·
Raoul,
In the second article we tried double click and never found it to help. In the third we listed the lenses better with the 5D III, it was only a few of the newest ones, most of the ones that give distance data were not more accurate.
Raoul J ·
About 7D’s AF results against 7D’s AF common feeling :
Of course, your articles are just part of the story :
AF absolute accuracy (what you speak about here) is different than AF capacity to acquire and keep focus on a moving subject, where the 7D is percieved as (and probably is) much better than 5DII.
Jim ·
Thanks for this VERY informative article. I am just an entry level DSLR user with an entry level model and consumer zooms. As your test shows, my shots shows quite a bit of sharpness variation. Given the apparent huge phase AF inconsistency, and for amateurs like myself, should we just go to mirrorless and get that fast reliable CDAF? Will I will a significant change in hit rate?
Roger Cicala ·
Hi Jim,
I don’t have any information about mirror less versus SLR – I think all we’ve shown is for still subjects contrast detection is more accurate with a few exceptions on Canon cameras. I would guess that using Live View AF on an SLR would be as accurate as using a mirrorless. But we’ll find out in a couple of weeks.
Roger
Chris P ·
Brilliant, easily understood explanation. I have now bookmarked your site and am looking forward to the report on the Nikon system.
dominique ·
Thank you so much for bringing us that information, Roger! I share your point of view that most photographers would be educated enough to bear more true and useful information about a new camera than all that marketing blabber that even seems to ever become worse.
What marketing people are trying to hide, others have to unveil afterwards – what a waste of time 🙂
Anders ·
There are several different AF sensor types used in Canon’s cameras.
The most basic is the short base line, single line sensor type. They are used in all peripheral points in the older cameras, and in some in the newer ones too. Due to the short distance between them, they aren’t too accurate, but on the other hand can focus at f/5.6. Sometimes they are made so short, thus inaccurate, that they even can focus at f/8.
Then there’s the long single line sensor. Due to the longer baseline, it gives higher accuracy, but on the other hand usually requires lenses with at least f/2.8.
There are also dual line, zig-zag type sensors. To increase resolution of the AF sensors, it’s favorable to have more pixels/mm, but smaller pixels gives more image noise in the sensor. By using two normal resolution sensors side by side, one shifted half a pixel to the other, and then combining the read-out, you can get both higher resolution and good signal to noise ratio.
The dual line sensor can have the same baseline as a single one, so this can offer focus at f/5.6, but still with better precision than the most basic type, although not as good as the high precision sensor, which has its two elements further apart.
Older cameras offering high precision focus, at f/2.8, typically achieved this only with their center point. The 1D Mark III is one example. However, that camera had high precison in one direction only. The other direction used the standard precision type, at f/5.6. Hence when testing focus with such a sensor it makes a big difference if the test object has a vertical or horizontal line.
The 40D was the first Canon camera to have high precision, at f/2.8, cross type sensor in the center. That’s the diagonal type of sensor which we also can see in the 1DX and 5D Mark III.
A camera like the 7D has short base line single type cross sensors in all positions except center, top and bottom.
The top, center and bottom have sig-zag short base line sensors in cross arrangement. Thus a bit better precison and better ability to detect large de-focus than the standard sensors.
The center sensor is also augmented by the diagonal high-precision cross type sensor, which requires f/2.8 to work.
To detail this for every single Canon camera is of course outside the scope of this comment, but it should be sufficient to see that exactly how you arrange the test target is very important for some of the camera models. In real world examples, a lot of other things influence the result too.
rf-design ·
Technical PDAF is a closed-loop system because in the end the system decide AF is ready. The focus motor have a mass to accelerate, have slip, limited resolution to control forces and finally limited precision. If the system works with a limited number of optical measurement control samples the final step before AF confirmation could be without optical measurement. That could be defined as some manner of open-loop.
What possible blame the hole combination of marketing and product definition is that there is a possible tradeoff of PDAF speed versus accuracy. That seems very natural and is simply different parameters in the driving SW to control the motor more slowly but to have more accurate focus. That is simply nonexistant in any PDAF camera and shows the ignorance of the product defintion against the user. I anticipate that the lens protocol should be backward compatible but system cameras should be run optimum with an existing system and not enforce technical unnecessary system component replacements.
The best possible motors are moving coils which fit better in nonsystem cameras but there the CDAF is the possible limiter.
Paul ·
This is a really interesting article. The 5DII’s autofocusing really is hard work so it’s great to read that the 5DIII has that sorted. I’ve noticed a few quirks too. Comparing our 600D “go anywhere” camera to one of our 5DIIs sometimes the 600D is better. Looking at the graphs it looks like there’s actually not much difference between the two!
Richard Cowan ·
Very interesting comparison, I wonder how other systems are going to perform.
Can I make a suggestion however. Presenting SD values like this, particually when comparing different bodies of different resolutions and AA strength is a little confusing.
Can I suggest that you first normalize all the tested MTFs to the average MTF for that camera, lens and AF method. Then we can make more direct comparisons between 21 MPix and 15 Mpix (for example) bodies, without worrying about the effect of different resolutions.
Roger Cicala ·
Richard that’s a good suggestion. I’ll see about working that in next time.
Peter ·
So, should I now feel a little less bereaved that I sold the following to help pay for my mk III?
17-40 f4
135 f2
Woody ·
Very interesting. Since it is such an outlier (both in expectation and in contradictory results) I would almost want to try some other tests on the EOS 7D to see just what it is actually good at (or which lenses it is good with), since it obviously isn’t center point with the lens you were using.
Markus ·
It’l be interesting to see if the coming major FW ugrade for the 7D will make a difference.
Roger, do you have any idea on the accuracy of the 7D’s AF sensors (at least, it also reads “center dual diagonal cross”)?
btw: Great article – it’s really sooooo difficult to separate marketing hypes from real advances. And most of us simply don’t have the possibilities for these checks.
Ivan ·
Hello Roger, thank you very much for your article. I find it very useful and your findings are very close to my experience with Canon 7D.
Personally, I do not like AF of 7D. Yes, I got used to it, I use 7D professionally and make money with it, but too many odd OOF images for my taste. As you found out, the SD of 7D is great (not that good).
But the biggest disappointment for me was a 7D + Canon 100mm L macro IS combo. I thought with a newly built and quality L lens with a f2.8 aperture AF would be dead on every time. I was wrong. My 7D and 100mm can miss some obvious and “easy” situations with good contrast. The focus variation is large – sometimes it’s dead on, sometimes it’s close, sometimes it’s off by a mile. And microadjustment doesn’t help.
Don’t get me wrong, I do get usable and extremely sharp images with this combo but I expected more precise AF, especially on f2.8.
The best results I get when I press AF-ON button several times before taking the image with very shallow DOF. It’s slightly more precise than using af-servo. And you can clearly see how camera shifts the focus, even though both times the camera gave green light for AF.
So, I cannot wait buy MK3. Thanks again for your article!
Woody ·
Good point, Markus. The 7D was a test bed for so many focus technologies, perhaps now what Canon has learned can be applied retroactively.
Tobias ·
Very nice and informative articles, thanks!
Hello Tern,
you asked:
“It’d be interesting to see if the theoretical choice of ‘accuracy (if you have f2.8)’ (Canon) vs ‘availability (cross point with any lens)’ (Nikon/Pentax) actually matches to reality.”
Matt and Jamieson, two “international award winning Toronto Wedding Photographers”, made a little test.
It wasn’t such an extensive testing, like with SD outputs and selection of the better performing cameras and lenses of a stack (just two cameras), but at least for me it yielded surprising and kind of diverse results, like the one on this site.
http://xerodigital.ca/canon-1dx-nikon-d4/
Greetings from Germany
Graham ·
Excellent articles, thank you. I’ve noticed a considerable improvement with my 5DIII and 70-300L combination. My walkaround lens is the 24-105, and it seems to behave better on the 5DIII than it did on the 5DII, but the improvement isn’t as dramatic. As the 24-105 is almost seven years old now, perhaps it’s time for an update with better AF?
Todd ·
I’d love to see you include a 1Ds MkII in the mix. I suspect the result would be surprising.
Peter ·
This has been a brilliant series of tests. Thank you so much guys. Can I blame you guys when my wife asks what on earth inspired the lens renewal program I will now have to start to get the best out of my 1D X?
Ed ·
Brilliant work. I’m grateful that there are people like you who not only understand how to do proper testing, but are then able to carry it through and share the insights. I find proper testing procedures to be akin to crawling naked over broken glass, which is why I know better than to try to focus tune my own gear – those with patience will outperform me. Can do, have done, hate it.
I did do a little bit of comparison between three Nikon bodies – D800e, D700, and D300, triggered by wanting to know if my new D800e had the left sensor focus issues that some do. I did several dozen shots each with differences in focus rotation direction, target distances, zoom settings, and then clustering results, two different lenses. What I saw suggests Nikon has also made a breakthrough in the D800e, sample quality problems notwithstanding. The D800e’s data clusters were much more compact, (and my body doesn’t have the problem, but that news didn’t make the process any less hateful for me.) My real world shooting seems to confirm that.
Bravo, Roger, for bringing some real data based insight to a topic usually smothered in emotional blather.
Martin ·
Yes, I second Todd’s suggestion, add some version of 1D Mk2 camera to the mix, please. Personal function 16 “Camera shoots when in focus” would be also great to test enabled/disabled.
Raoul J ·
Hello Roger !
Thanks for your answer!
But if I come back to my
“3. If I understand you correctly, your results mean that the focus will actually be better on 1DX and 5DIII with lenses without feedback if you double click.” : How would you explain this is not the case ?
If the old lens (the 50mm 1.4) is lacking some feedback to position correctly from the one order received from the new camera -one camera which AF measurement is accurate enough to perform a very accurate positioning -that’s your hypothesis- then why does the accuracy NOT increase if you do it several time ?
If the camera measurement is accurate, it should get the lens closer and closer from the “correct” focus, no ?
Any idea ?
Gary ·
Thanks Roger. I love your down-home style.
Luckily I switched to Canon late (mid-2009) and
have moved up to the 5D3. The 135 L works
exceedingly well with the 5D3 in dark environments like casinos (candid photos of patrons). Yet it is an
“old in the tooth” lens, correct? The 135L did not
work anywhere near as well with the 5D2.
Andre ·
Hi Roger. You mentioned that you chose one copy of each camera to test. Don’t you think you need to test several copies of each model in order alleviate copy to copy variation? Or, have you already done copy to copy testing to find how close the SD is for a group of cameras of the same model?
Eric ·
Great job! Glad you checked cropped bodies too. I wonder how much better the T4i is than my old XSI.
Alan ·
Based on what I read it was a bit of a disappointment to find out that everything I purchased (7D, 5DII, and 70-200L f2.8 IS II) in the last year are all outdated technology. Actually, after a trip back to Canon for my 7D (adjustments were performed) and my 100-400L f4-5.6 (adjustments were performed) the combo works fairly well. The 7D from the beginning did not perform AF well with that lens in particular and I was very frustrated as it worked great on my prior 50D. I also upgraded from a 5D to a 5DII to stay relatively current with technology although I’m not a trail blazer in camera technology as you can see. I use the 7D for action shots (mostly birds) and the 5DII for landscapes and the pair suit my purposes very well (after Canon tune up). I have never had issues with the 5DII and think it’s a nice incremental update. I would not been able to justify the extra cost of the 5DIII regardless of how good it is. Based on your findings I was surprised to see the 7D produce less than stellar results even with its more advanced AF system. I did not see any reference to the 2.0 firmware update making any AF changes but only stuff to make it a better movie camera.
Jeremy Stephenson ·
Thanks Roger, This is a great series.
I would love to see a comparison of shooting one-shot vs. continuous AF on your target as well. Is that a possibility? Personally I prefer using continuous AF, shutter half-depressed, waiting to catch the moment as the subject moves around (for example candid expressions at a wedding as someone’s involved in an animated discussion). However I wonder sometimes if that affects my keeper rate with static shots.
I have tried micro-adjustment with my Canon 7D’s on various (f2.8 and L) zooms, but generally found the focus seemed be randomly situated, sometimes in-front, sometimes behind the mark on my lensalign calibrator. It didn’t seem to matter if I used one-shot or continuous AF.
However, I would love to know if there is any decrease in accuracy using continuous AF on a stationary subject — even if it’s just with the 5DMarkIII and the newer lenses. I wouldn’t imagine it would increase the workload too much — just switch AF mode and fire off a few more rounds for each camera/lens combo?
K D Sandmann ·
Im thinking there are a lot of beaks opened wide eagerly awaiting Rogers regurgitation.
A funny or perhaps disturbing visual.
Chirp chirp.
🙂
James ·
What I don’t understand is how the 7D has wores numbers than the 5DII. Can we challenge this call and check the instant replay? Also great articles I’ve enjoyed all of them even the technical ones.
Richard Hatch ·
I liken your work to the new age anatomists who actually dissected real bodies to determine how things work instead of relying on information that was quite old and not correct. Unfortunately, the masses over at DPreview are going crazy (because they are idiots)suggesting your data shows this that or the other and arguing this that and the other…. sheesh…
As a 7D and 5DmkII user and a handful of L lenses I’m grateful to have great equipment. Knowing how it works and what limitations it has is a bonus.
Richard
Ed ·
Wait – I think we’re missing the big picture here… What I’d REALLY like to see tested now is what manual focus performance looks like for a relatively experienced shooter, without the magnification of live view, etc, and with a relatively short time window to focus in. Then you’d see whether the normal human being is going to be generally better off with AF or not. My own experience is that if I allow myself time for focus hunting – tweaking focus back and forth a few times and iterating in on the point of focus – I can beat the AF system. But not under normal real world shooting conditions with living, breathing, moving subjects. That would put the whole “better/worse bodies” into perspective, I think.
Roger Cicala ·
Ed,
I’ll need an experienced photographer who can manually focus accurately for that test. I’m not it! There’s a reason I use Live View 🙂
Roger
Tom ·
Great stuff – curious minds free from marketing chatter usually get the bottom of the pile. As a side note: in my line of business a closed loop system does something in addition to what i read your description to suggest, ie. here’s your statement “It’s clear that later AF systems were closed loop (the camera double checked where the lens had gone)” – here’s what it is in my industry “the camera double checked where the lens had gone, then double checked that it went to the place it was supposed to go – and if not, then repeat the whole process, if yes then take the darn picture”. I’m not being critical, just think this is an important nuance (that maybe is obvious to you and thereore could have gone without mention).
Thanks for putting so much work into this. But makes me want to upgrade my 7D.
Stephen Feingold ·
Roger,
Do more recently manufactured older lenses have improved focus mechanisms?
Kevin ·
Seems autofocus systems have been closed loop in one-shot mode for quite some time. See http://www.dpreview.com/articles/5402438893/busted-the-myth-of-open-loop-phase-detection-autofocus for evidence.
Marcus ·
Very interesting.
Nikon NZ have lent me a D4 to test drive and I have to say the AF is quite astonishing even compared to the D3s. They increased the RGB sensor from 1005 pixels to over 900,000 and it seems to have zipped things up no end.
Oddly, I was test driving a D800E a week ago and – although the AF is supposed to be the same module – it was not as good as the D4. I’ve always thought there is a ‘secret sauce’ in Nikon’s pro bodies and maybe that is the case here. It’s even very fast with older Nikkor screw-drive AF lenses (such as the AFD 85mm f1.4), much less the AFS ones with ultrasonic motors etc.
Certainly I have almost concluded that the D4 is what I will be buying as I think it is a more useful tool to me than the D800, which for (mainly) subjective reasons was not good for me. I also think that 36Mp is just too much for my work and 16 is a great compromise between speed, high ISO ability and being able to crop a bit without loosing significant resolution.
Scott McLeod ·
As so many others have said, thanks so much for this info! The back-of-the-pack position of the 7D is interesting (and unfortunate) and probably goes a long way to explaining a lot of the AF “issues” that 7D owners complained about. It also probably explains why that AF sensor has not been seen in any other body since.
I know that my 5DIII will AF cleanly and accurately in light so low I can barely see what I’m shooting (which still amazes me but backs up the stated AF spec of going down to EV-2) while the 7D with the same lens will be flashing and sizzling away with little to show for it.
I am keeping my fingers X’ed that the v2 7D firmware will include some AF improvements in addition to the hugely increased buffer (which is my main interest).
Keep up the great work!
Ed Gill ·
Roger
Repeated thanks to you for your hard work and service to the photo community. Just more evidence to keep me turning to mirror-less systems with fast contrast detection. My old panasonic G1 is far more accurate and consistent then any of my Canons through the 50D. Disappointed but not surprised about the 7D – I’ll pass. The 5D III, maybe, but what is not really addressed is wear and tear and tolerance creep as flopping mirrors, AF sensors, and lens motors vibrate out of tolerance. The inherent problem with Phase detection is that it uses “Dead Reckoning” to guess where in space the lens is putting the “too often curved” focus plane and where the very flat sensor surface is. Somewhat akin to the old need to shim focus screens to match light path distance to the film surface. Since contrast detection uses information from the sensor itself no “calibration and calculation” is needed – simply a more reliable system. I would guess, maybe one more generation of floppy mirror cameras (tight tolerances are expensive to produce) then the world will turn EVIL. Best Regards, Ed
Dan Tong ·
Here is something that might interest you:
Here is an abstract of research with defocus and how that can be used for focusing on natural images, and suggests that this method will soon be developed and used in cameras.
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/09/16/1108491108.abstract
CarVac ·
It’s interesting how the 50D and 60D performed the same, (they have the same AF sensor), but the T4i did better with the same exact AF sensor.
Raoul J ·
Hello
I again try to understand why the double click method doesn’t increase accuracy with 1DX and 5DIII.
I own an old 1DII and 50mm 1.4, 85 1.8, 70-200 2.8L IS (and more)…
What I know by experience is that the 50mm is -by far- the worst of all when it’s about focus accuracy. Where does it come from ? Possibly the type of focus motor -which is different than the others. Possibly an old AF chip inside the lens. Possibly both.
So I was wondering if the results you got was relevant of all USM lenses or just the 50mm 1.4.
Because, once again, if your hupothesis are right, you SHOULD see an improvement with old lenses and 1DX/5DIII when you double focus…
What do you think ?
mark lowden ·
Fantastic piece of work! Non subjective and analytical. I would love to see something like this in the camera press for all the new kit that arrives – we don’t (thats why I have just about given up buying it) and rely on Roger and Thom for some clarity. Why?? Love to see similar on the Nikon line up I do a lot of action stuff (surf, aircraft) and auto focus is the only way to fly (for me anyway).
Kevin ·
Roger, while the AF on the 5DIII is clearly more precise and consistent than the 5DII, is there any way to translate your results into inches or millimeters of error? For example, if the 5DII is off (on average) by 2 millimeters while the 5DIII is off by only 1 millimeter, the difference may not be very significant from a practical perspective. However, if the difference is 10 and 20 millimeters, it could be very significant. In both cases, the difference is 100%, but its less significant if the numbers are very small to begin with.
Lynn Allan ·
http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/08/canon-usa-announces-ef-300mm-400mm-500mm-and-600mm-l-is-ii-lens-firmware-version-1-1-1/
CanonRumors.com has an article about Canon updating firmware for recent super-zoom lenses. My speculation is that this could be related to improved focus with recent bodies?
Sérgio ·
Thanks for the wonderful work of putting into numbers something that some of us have been wondering for such a long time.
From my short experience I agree with you that AF accuracy is a function of lens actuator (and motion measurement system) and phase detection sensor (and control algorithm) but in addition I think the lens sharpness / contrast at the wider aperture might also change the AF overall performance.
Hopefully photography gear reviewers will start to measure and rate the AF side by side with resolution, dynamic range and such. The big question that is left open (and I hope you will be able to answer) is: how do other system compare accuracy wise with the one you tested?
Sérgio ·
Thanks for the wonderful work of putting into numbers something that some of us have been wondering for such a long time.
From my short experience I agree with you that AF accuracy is a function of lens actuator (and motion measurement system) and phase detection sensor (and control algorithm) but in addition I think the lens sharpness / contrast at the wider aperture might also change the AF overall performance.
Hopefully photography gear reviewers will start to measure and rate the AF side by side with resolution, dynamic range and such. The big question that is left open (and I hope you will be able to answer) is: how do other system compare accuracy wise with the one you tested?
fem2008 ·
Thanks, Roger. I always enjoy your reports and insights. Just a couple of comments regarding your conclusion about closed loop Vs. Open loop focusing. Just because the patent says “The control circuit performs closed-loop control, based on the output of the rotation detector to control the motor”, it does not mean that the Autofocusing system is closed loop as well. In fact, you could have two separate closed loop controls, one for the focusing, and one for the motor alone. As an engineer, I have done this with control systems. You can have a loop within a loop. So I don’t think that this can prove if the Canon system was open loop before and now is closed loop or anything different. This is not the point here. There is evidence from other manufacturers such as Minolta that it has been closed loop for long time, but I cannot speak for the Canon.
I think this new information relates more to how to achieve faster focusing with better accuracy at the same time. In order to drive a motor fast, you can use course steps or drive pulses. But course steps are not that accurate. You can drive a motor in half steps, and quarter steps, etc., to achieve ever increasing positional accuracy, but that slows it down. You can drive the motor at high speed using coarse pulses, then slow down and use finer pulses as you get closer to the point of focus, but how do you know when to switch between the two speeds (closed loop autofocus, open loop motor control situation)? What if your optimal point of focus is between two control pulses? You can’t send 10.5 pulses. This is where the encoder can improve things. The encoder can have a much higher resolution than the drive circuit pulses, and can inform the drive circuit to switch to finer drive control in mid pulse (if the auto-focus sensor senses ti needs to), in order to achieve optimal focusing. The encoder can also account for slip in the motor. With this system, it truly becomes closed loop focusing and closed loop motor drive.
By the way, just relying on the number of rotations of a motor or focusing element alone still does not constitute closed loop focusing, even if an encoder is used to verify the right amount of turns. Because, this assumes that the focusing helicoid is made with enough precision to properly position the element exactly where in needs. Even if that was true, with wear and tear, the lens focusing accuracy would drop over time. With a true closed loop focusing system, the helicoid accuracy does not matter (as long as you don’t have excessive slop or friction).
Roger Cicala ·
Thank you Farid. That makes a lot of sense and fills in some blanks very well.
One of the best things about writing articles like this is a lot of people take the time to broaden my knowledge in the comments, and I do appreciate it! As do all of the others who read them.
Roger
Jeff ·
Here’s a blunt question.
I understand from the article that in order to take advantage of the 5D MKIII and its improved focusing system, then you need the newer revision to popular lenses (e.g. 24-70L 2.8 MKII). This leads me to understand that I won’t see a difference with my (now) older 24-70L 2.8 MKI on a 5D MKIII body.
With that said, say I want to upgrade from my APS-C sensor body to a full frame sensor body. Would it be better to save the $1500 and get one of the remaining 5D MKII bodies over the 5D MKII? Unless there is an unfortunate accident, I don’t plan on upgrading my 24-70 f2.8 for a while. Is there any other reason to get the 5D MKIII over the MKII?
Roger Cicala ·
Jeff,
Right now there aren’t (apparently) a lot of lenses available in the ‘new’ category. But this was just a lab test: from what I see and hear from others in the field the 5D III is more accurate in general. I certainly have found it so, with my current 70-200 IS II and several ‘older’ primes. I can’t say if that’s worth the money to you or not. The 5D II is still a very good camera and the price difference will be coming down if you wait a while.
Roger
Alan ·
Sounds like some 7D owners are hoping the new firmware will address the AF issues described ad nauseum. Based of the Canon update info it seems like most of the changes are either for movie makers or add some useless on camera functionality that most shooters like myself don’t care about. I take pictures with my camera and make pictures with my computer.
Arthur ·
very interesting – thanxs a lot for that great efford. Could you write or say something about using Sigma/Tamron for example a Sigma 120-300mm 2.8 OS on Canon Cameras 5d2 / 5d3? For sigma/tamron the whole reeingenering must be a nightmare – but i am seriously interested in that lense – there is hardly a alternative in the Canon Catalog. Your article makes me really thinking about it. ( i do not have $$$$$ to find out) also i am from switzerland, no returning in if you don’t like – and very high prices compared to the US)
Roger Cicala ·
ARthur, I don’t think this little study would show anything about the Sigma 120-300. It’s not the fastest autofocusing lens, that’s for sure, but it does bring a lot of advantages to the table.
Roger
Tim ·
What is the possibility that mirror-flop and shutter vibration could influence these results? What shutter speed were these shot with? Obviously for the 1DX/5DMKII on a 300mm f2.8 it looks like mirror-flop and shutter speed had no effect…but what if that is a factor with other bodies?
Roger Cicala ·
Tim,
It’s always a possibility, but the only difference I could imagine would be in a group between full=frame and APS-C, I think. The target has standard lighting and all shots are at ISO 400 so shutter speeds vary a tiny bit by focal length, and a lot by aperture, but slowest are around 1/400 and fastest about 1/1000. In theory that should be out of the range of significant effect.
Roger
Edwin Herdman ·
Something odd I noticed after the “contestants” header in blue:
“We know the Canon 28mm f/2.8 IS II had accurate autofocus on the Canon 5DIII so we chose one copy to be our test lens.”
28mm f/2.8 IS II?
Roger Cicala ·
Well, I guess it was a “II” in my own mind. . .
Gozo Kiona ·
What’s the point of putting graphs of everything with numbers, with no units at all? “Yes, the car was running at 1902”,… feet per hour? Very non-technical for a dslr review…
Roger Cicala ·
If you actually read the articles, you’ll see the graphs are in Line Pairs / Image height.
Mike Mullen ·
Roger, thanks for all the info – very useful.
I assume you used Imatest charts as the AF target?
I am curious under what light levels your testing was perfomed? My testing of the 7D and 40D (using various fabrics as AF targets) suggested that center point phase detection AF consistency and accuracy took a dramatic hit as light levels fell below EV 6 or so when testing lenses of f/2.8 or faster. However, this fall-off was not noticed when using an AF point off center (non-HP AF point) or a lens slower than f/2.8. The difference was so dramatic it appears the high precision AF point causes the lens to make an erroneous correction under light levels that are not typically thought of as causing AF issues. I imagine using a test chart with more contrast than typical, real world AF targets could mask this phenomenon. That is why I use fabrics to test AF (because I do not use high contrast test charts as my AF targets under actual shooting conditions).
It would be interesting if you could duplicate these results. I know testing is time consuming but I think this is an area that needs further exploration because photographers often use the center (HP) AF point under low light conditions with apertures f/2.8 and larger and with AF subjects that are not high contrast black and white test images. They do this expecting higher AF precision. If this is not the case, then they would be better off selecting one of the regular precision AF points (surrounding the center AF point).
Thanks again for sharing your results so generously.
Roger Cicala ·
Hi Mike,
We are using Imatest targets with 80% 20% gray target to background variation, lit with diffused halogen lights to keep our exposures at ISO 400, f/2.8 to between 1/250 and 1/800. I think your points are completely valid. Given the time involved, and my desire to limit variables, I just want to do one thing at a time. I see this as a year’s worth of effort, at least.
Roger
Zak ·
Roger,
I’m sure that 3rd party lenses will have a disadvantage but it would be interesting to see whether there are models that will provide the same type of feedback to the body. I imagine it’d be difficult for the manufacturer to include such a system-specific thing in a lens. But if they manage to do it anyway, it would be a shame if it went unnoticed.
Regarding the open-loop/closed-loop story: I’d agree that the AF procedure _must_ include a feedback of some form if you want reproducible results with different lenses (i.e. the body must re-check the focus and correct the lens until it’s “good” (for whatever “good” means). But with a sensor in the lens and/or a step motor, the feedback contains a lot more information so the autofocus loop will need fewer iterations because the result of a signal given to the lens can be predicted better, and therefore Focus can be achieved quicker.
Only quicker, not more accurately? Well, depends. In control engineering you can always trade one for the other: If you move quickly, you arrive sooner, but might miss the target a bit. If you want to be extra-precise, you need to move slower, or check back more often, and in general apply smaller inputs in between getting feedback. I’ve seen this in the completely unrelated example of a hydraulic robot arm once. In one extreme it’s lightning fast but can’t really sit still, in the other it is rock-steady and precise but sloooooow. The difference is made by how the control circuit is designed.
Now if you get more feedback from the lens, you can determine the required dose of lens movement quicker (in the case of step motors you can also execute more precisely), and that gives you an advantage for either speed or accuracy, or a bit of both, whichever the engineer designing the system prefers.
Kai ·
Roger,
Thanks for the effort. Any comments as to why the 7D actually has a larger standard deviation (41) than both the 50D and 60D (34)?
Bashing SD’s can be fun, but what about the average resolutions? If the 7D is 1000 +/- 41, I’ll take it over a 700 +/- 34 50D any day thank you 😉
Also, picking some nits: the 50D was not released in December 08, but September or October (mine is from mid October). DPR lists the 50D as announced on August 26, 2008. Likewise, the 5D2 is listed as announced on September 17, 2008.
josh bornstein ·
Very helpful review. One spelling tip (that I used to give to my 3rd and 5th grade students): If you don’t know the difference between ‘its’ and “it’s”, always fully write out “it is,” and that means you NEVER need to use “it’s.”
Sorry for being so pedantic, but it’s the English teacher in me . . . it just hurts to see really basic spelling errors. 🙂
Greg ·
Roger, thanks again for some terrific research and write-up. The data is very interesting and the info about rotation detection in the lenses very pertinent. But I think you muffed your reading of Rudy Winston’s article and the conclusions you drew from it, though it still provides insights.
Rudy employs an historical approach in explaining cross-type AF points and “High-precision” AF points, not just strictly info about the 5D Mk III and 1D X. He does NOT state that ONLY the 5D Mk III and 1D X have “precision cross-type AF sensors” but that Canon has offered “high-precision” AF sensors since the 1990s. Indeed, we see a cross-type sensor in the EOS 1, marketed 9/1989, and a high-precision sensor in the EOS 1N, marketed 11/1994 (a hybrid cross — f/5.6 horizontal and f/2.8 vertical). Rudy also says (re: 5D Mk III and 1D X) “These aren’t the first EOS cameras to use a diagonal cross-type, high-precision arrangement, but they are the first to offer it with multiple points in the central area.” The EOS 40D (marketed 9/2007) introduced a sensor with a dual cross-type center point — a f/5.6 “+” and f/2.8 “X”, like the 5 in the center column of the 5D Mk III and 1D X.
Instead, allow me to speculate on clues in Rudy’s article. The traditional “High-precision” (f/2.8) sensors use longer lines, with 2x-3x more sensor pixels, spaced further apart than standard-precision (f/5.6) sensors. While the lens aperture and the size of its cone of light remains a constraint, the AF optics could be improved to focus on smaller, more densely packed sensor pixels.
While this is just speculation, it could also be applied beyond the 5 “High-precision” diagonal cross-type sensors to improving the precision of all 61 points. This would help explain the improvement of the EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6L IS USM which, tested at f/4, would have used the “standard” f/5.6 “+” sensor.
Returning to the AF sensor introduced in the 40D — according to Canon, it has also been used in the 50D, 60D, and T4i. You tested the last 3 and found 50D and 60D equal but the T4i improved by a value of 5. To me this indicates that even without a new, higher precision sensor design, more modest improvements can be made via the AF algorithms (which are usually coded in firmware). I hope you re-test the 7D with the new firmware — the test results with the existing firmware are appalling.
So there are my speculations: a) substantial design precision improvements in the new AF sensor; and b) modest improvements via the algorithms (that could be applied to older AF sensors).
I hope someone can pin a Canon person down at Photokina for some real answers!
In investigating all this I also noted: 1) The 5D Mk III and 1D X both have separate dedicated AF processors; and 2) The exposure light metering sensor on the T4i is the image sensor.
Thanks again,
Greg H.
Roger Cicala ·
Thank you, Greg: as always, a well thought out point well made. I always appreciate your contributions and input.
Best,
Roger
Jerry ·
Are there any data or planned tests of 3rd party lenses with the newer EOS’s? I’d like to see how the Tamron 18-270 PZD compares when used on the 4Ti.
Roger Cicala ·
Jerry,
Not anytime soon. It’s extremely unlikely the third-party lenses could have whatever the new algorithms or hardware that the new Canon lenses do. We may look to see if they’re significantly less accurate after we do the Nikon tests. It’s my suspicion that third party lenses are more or less accurate on different bodies and we’ll look into that. Certainly anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that.
Roger
Mike S ·
Roger,
Thank you for bringing together your experimental design skills, your statistical analysis background, and your long time interest in photography, to define Canon’s current AF outcomes – in the context of variational data. It has been a while since I could go through some of your writings, and, on vacation this week returned to your website to see what is new. Wow, the development of results in terms of averages around variation is a great way to define focus outcomes for lenses and cameras, and, your data and analysis are excellent. The reverse engineering of the lens rotation sensor, and publishing it, is probably causing Canon some consternation (although their competitors probably do read, carefully, all of their patents). The patent examination, and correlation to the new 40mm lens design was also outstanding. In addition to your business enabling mere mortals to test lenses we cannot afford, we have access to data that no other site publishes. Nice job. Thanks for starting the analysis with Canon.
greg thurtle ·
I was just going to ask if you were going to test nikon.. and you answered it.
I’ve been using some software (FoCal) to automatically set my AF muicroadjust values, and i see the variability in the AF, i’ve wondered why, and you’ve answered that very well.
I’d be interested if there was a way to select improved precision via a custom function, sort of a firmware double check, without relying on rotation detection, this would open up more accurate AF for older lenses too.
I’m expecting this may be an even bigger issue with older nikon lenses and cameras with high resolution such as the Nikon D800.
I look forward to reading your results and conclusions with eagerness.
Thanks again for the article(s)
Greg
BengtS ·
Having just updated my 7d to firmware version 2.0, it seems to me that AF is now working more consistently than before.
Would it be possible to rerun your tests with the new firmware to verify if that is actually the case?
Thanks for your very thorough analysis.
Denny ·
In the US, the 7D, 60D, T4i has a dual cross center AF point, but in Hong Kong, the 7D, 60D, 650D only has a single cross center AF point. Strange! Why would Canon do that?
Greg ·
@Denny — That would be exceptionally strange, especially since Canon’s Hong Kong website says the 7D, 60D, and 650D have dual cross center AF points:
From http://www.canon.com.hk/ Home > Product Catalog > EOS Digital SLR Camera > EOS Digital > EOS 7D, EOS 60D, and EOS 650D Features:
7D) The newly developed AF System features all cross-type19-point AF sensors which detect both horizontal and vertical lines for better focusing performance. They evenly spread out across the viewfinder, allows easier focus on off-center subject. All 19 points are f/5.6-sensitive for f/5.6 or larger aperture lenses, while the center AF point adds high-precision diagonal cross-type sensitivity for f/2.8 and larger aperture lenses for enhanced accuracy. Inherited from the EOS-1D series, a dedicated microcomputer for AF calculations is featured in EOS 7D, not only achieve high-speed continuous shooting at approximately 8 fps, but also improve AF accuracy and reliability.
60D) The 9-point AF system on the new EOS 60D features f/5.6-sensitive cross-type focusing on all 9 focusing points. The focusing points are widely spread out across the image plane and clearly displayed through the viewfinder, making it easier to focus off-center subject. The center AF point is a hybrid of standard cross-type and special diagonally-shaped “X” cross, with high-precision sensitivity for f/2.8 and larger aperture lenses. EOS 60D also adopts the AI Servo AF II algorithm as found in EOS-1D Mark IV and EOS 7D. It offers enhanced focus tracking accuracy by fast and correct prediction of movements, free from the short-term effect caused by intervening objects. AI Servo AF II also optimize auto focus performance in macro photography, to further enhance the ratio to obtain sharp macro images with auto focus.
650D) The 9-point AF system on the new EOS 650D features f/5.6-sensitive cross-type focusing on all 9 focusing points. The focusing points are widely spread out across the image plane and clearly displayed through the viewfinder, making it easier to focus off-center subject. The center AF point is a hybrid of standard cross-type and special diagonally-shaped “X” cross, with high-precision sensitivity for f/2.8 and larger aperture lenses.
Greg H.
Denny ·
Greg,
Thanks for your update. The previous reply from Canon HK stated these models do not support dual-cross center AF point with the quotes seems to be from the manual. Let me check with them again and let you know the result when I got the reply from them.
Denny ·
The first two written reply from Canon HK stated the models have a f/5.6 “+” cross-type AF and a f/2.8 “+” cross-type AF. But the third verbal reply confirmed they have f/5.6 “+” cross-type AF and a f/2.8 “X” cross-type AF. She mentioned that they are different from the those on 5D3/1DX which features an Offset Array Sensor (with staggering AF point arrangement)
Mattias ·
Roger,
great job finding out that the 5DM3 needs the new types of lenses to show it’s full AF capabilities.
That leads me to two questions:
1 – What lenses of this “new type” do exist currently? I understand that the 24-70 2.8 M2 is one of those, but do there exist others today?
2 – What about lenses of older design, but newly maufactured, like e.g. a 50 1.4 or a 24-105 L bought today, are they still of the “old type” or did they have some kind of unpublished “face lift” to fit the 5DM3 AF capabilities?
Regards,
Mattias
Roger Cicala ·
Mattias,
As best I can tell, the 24 and 28mm f/2.8 IS, 40mm f/2.8, and all of the Mk II supertelephoto lenses, as well as the 70-300 IS L are in the ‘new lens’ category. I’m not certain about the 70-200 f/2.8 IS II. New copies of older designs should not be different than the older copies. They aren’t redesigned. But I haven’t tested them all to be certain.
Roger
Daniel ·
Thanks, Roger, for a *very* interesting article. Would you expect all new EOS cameras released from now on to have the new AF system? Or would you think the new AF won’t “trickle down” to cameras like the “entry level” FF rumored to be coming soon (not to mention future “Rebels”)? Thanks a lot for all insights!
Daniel
Rodrigo ·
Roger,
It was very interesting and enlightening to read your posts on this subject. It must have been quite a job to run all those tests.
I disagree with one of your statements however: “I would have understood if each generation of newer cameras and lenses got a little better”
If yopu bear in mind Canon has different camera segments, you can see clearly a trend to a better accuracy in your graphs:
1st segment is the flagship 1D series, each generation gets better.
2nd segment the 5DII / 5DIII and the 7D (5DII and 7D were released with only some months separation and approx geared to the same semi-pro users but for the APS-C/Full frame feature), again a betterment.
3rd segment EOS 50D and 60D, this time approx the same, would be interesting to see the 40D performing
and last, 4th segment wich is the entry level T3i and T4i, showing again a betterment
With the exception of 2nd and 3rd segs which are quite similar, you see a trend that each segment is better than the following which also corresponds to the price tags of the cameras.
Regards,
BozillaNZ ·
The rotation detector in Canon’s USM lens is optical, not magnetic. There are laser itched slits in the half circle transparent plastic stripe shown in your photo. If you touch it the grease on your finger gets filled in the slits hence the movement detection fails.
And this mechanism has been in the ring time USM for a long time. I recently took apart the 17-35 2.8L lens, which was introduced in 1996 and it had the exactly same optical detector.
jay ·
Hi Roger, my 70-200 IS II sometimes has the Image stabilizer being louder than usual when it engages and disengages. During the stabilizing process it is quiet. Most of the time it just clicks when IS starts/stops which i know is normal, but sometimes it will give out a louder chirrp when IS starts/stops and it only happens occassionally, more so in Al servo mode when shooting sports. Is there something wrong with my Image stabilizer? Or is it newer bodies like 5 D mark 3 makes IS lenses noisier? thanks for your help 🙂
Roger Cicala ·
Hi Jay,,
IS noise on the 70-200 II is really variable. We see that variable IS noise all the time. It’s just normal. Weird. But normal.
Roger
Daniel ·
May I —now that the 6D is officially announced— ask again: do you expect its seemingly completely new AF-system to be be as precise as the 5D MkIII’s with the new lenses? Are you going to test it? Thanks a lot for answering!
Daniel
Roger Cicala ·
Daniel,
We’ll test it, of course, but from the specs it seems to use a less robust AF system. On the other hand, we’re just looking at center point, still focus, so it’s possible it does well there.
Roger
Pete ·
Hi there, I don’t really understand all that much about camera testing, but I know a small amount about stats. Hasn’t Kai (above – August 6th) made an important point? Isn’t standard deviation a measure of variability rather than average performance? Please could you respond to this? Many thanks!
Roger Cicala ·
Hi Pete,
That is exactly correct — I am trying to measure the variability of the set of shots. 10 contrast detection shots have less variability and thus a lower SD. What I wanted to know is how reproducible is AF, shot to shot. How reproducible is it.
Others have instead looked at the frequency of absolutely missed shots, but that becomes something of a judgement call: what is missed? How far off must you be? Imatest gives us accurate numbers on the focus, but is too time consuming to do series of hundreds to determine # of missed shots.
The mean of the group of shots would differ a bit because of the increased variability of phase detection, but there is a greater difference in mean depending upon how well or poorly the camera is microfocus adjusted.
Pete ·
Thanks ever so much for your answer; as I understand you, in the graph comparing the 5D ii and 5D iii, the mark iii has far less spread, which is (naturally) desirable. But the mark iii also seems to exhibit higher values on the axes. I am not sure what these axes represent, but I assume that this is a good thing? I have a 7D which, according to your tests, seems to have a high degree of variability. I’ve only had this camera (my first DSLR) for a year, but I love it. I was wondering if this is because, although its performance may be varied, focusing tends to be pretty good on average? I understand your point about microfocus and wonder whether I got lucky (as I wouldn’t have a clue how to adjust this) – and this being the case, could your results differ from camera to camera? Apologies if my questions seem naive – I am genuinely interested but relatively new to all this…
Rob ·
Very good test, thanks its very usefull for me!
For several year I worked with a workaround, use AI Servo even for one shot focus.
Program one button for autofocus, use it to focus then take your finger of the button, a voila, a perfect in focus picture.
I still use it with my 5d mark 1 and my eos 7d!
Rob ·
Very good test, thanks its very usefull for me!
For several year I worked with a workaround, use AI Servo even for one shot focus.
Program one button for autofocus, use it to focus then take your finger of the button, a voila, a perfect in focus picture.
I still use it with my 5d mark 1 and my eos 7d!
Pete ·
Hi Roger, in conducting further research in an attempt to answer to my earlier question, I came across your take on the autofocus capability of the 7D from your own (current) website: ‘Initially I was nervous over the whole “Canon introduces a new autofocus system” idea, but a very short time with the camera eased that. My impression is the autofocus is clearly improved — better than anything this side of a 1D body that I’ve experienced’. Is this comment simply out of date?
Roger Cicala ·
Hi Pete,
No, but remember we’re only looking at center point AF on still shots. There’s a lot more variables going on with every day use.
Jan I ·
Hi Roger,
I really enjoyed this article when you first published it, and it still is one of my favourite AF performance articles out there.
Have you had a chance to test the performance of other STM lenses than the 40mm pancake?
Paolo Smeraldi ·
Hi Roger,
I really enjoyed these posts.
I’m a Panasonic GH2 user and recently I have shot some dance/sports events in low light, using manual FD canon lens.
I usually use the old trust canon fd 85 mm 1,8 or the 135 f 2,8.
I use these lenses because panasonic’s own lenses are darker, but I have problems focusing when the lenses are wide open because of the shallow depth of field.
I do use this camera at 1600-3200 isos, 1/250 – 1/500, and usually f4.
Now as many micro 4/3 users I wonder if using a full frame camera I would be better off (less noise).
What I would like to ask you, after reading this article, is how considering the crop factor my real life picture taken under such settings would compare with a canon 5d mark 2 picture taken with a 170-260 mm lens.
Would the 5d mark 2 be able to focus at such a long range, considering that the depth of field is much shallower?
If I calculate depth of field with the canon fd 135 mm at f/4 at 10 meters, I get 0,65 meters. To get the same DOF on a canon 5d mark 2 with a 270 lens, I must step it down to f/8.
At this point, do I really have an advantage with the bigger sensor in terms of noise?
On the contrary, if for want of a brighter image I would set the aperture at f/4, would the canon camera get sharp images?
Thanks
Paolo
Roger Cicala ·
Paolo,
That’s a complex situation with a lot of answers, but rather than write a book I’ll simplify.
The 5D2 would certainly give you less noise at ISO 1600 and up. It would have no problem autofocusing at the distance described, especially with an f/2.8 lens. BUT the phase detection AF on the Canon is not going to be as accurate as the contrast detection on your current camera. This would be compounded somewhat by the shallower depth of field. I would add there is some variation in focus accuracy depending on the lens used – the two that you mention are older designs and less accurate than, say, the 70-200 f/2.8 IS II lens would be.
A 5D III may be another matter. It’s autofocus is more accurate, particularly in low light, and particularly with a newer lens like the 70-200. While I use my m4/3 set ups more and more, if I was shooting what you are describing I would absolutely grab a 5D III and a 70-200 2.8 IS II.
Roger
Paolo Smeraldi ·
Thanks Roger;
If I got the 5dmark III and the 70-200 lens, I would not get the same magnification as the one I can get with the canon fd 135 on the panasonic gh2; considering the 2x crop factor, on the canon I would need a 270mm lens, something like the canon 70-300 f4-5,6.
At this point, if I set the panasonic at f/4, I have to set the canon at f/8 to get the same DOF.
In this case, the canon loses exactly one stop; I think that the sensor is much better on the canon, so it will probably make up for the difference.
It the canon autofocus is good enough and I do not need depth of field, I can even open up the lens and it gets even better for canon.
I think that if panasonic could make a sensor with a better signal to noise ratio for the gh3 it would have made a killer camera.
I hoped that they could do as well as fuji.
I very much like the panasonic as an almost ideal camcorder and camera combination.
I think that mirrorless is the future, but probably with bigger or better sensors.
Thanks Roger, you blog is very nice and your articles interesting and well written.
Paolo
Dave Seeley ·
Thanks Roger!!!
Do you know if the 70-200mm f2.8 IS II was NOT optimized to be (future) compatible with the latest autofocus? – and that is why is performs at a lesser standard than the newest lenses? I was contemplating selling my IS v1, and upgrading to an IS II, but if the answer to my question is that is was NOT optimized, then I’d think that Canon might introduce a vIII sometime soon….. and I’d wait.
Dave
Roger Cicala ·
HI Dave,
I’m working on the next AF article, but I’ve gotten educated. It appears there’s not a yes-no answer but rather an increasing series of capabilities built into lenses and cameras. But with this in mind, the 70-200 is fairly optimized, although perhaps not quite as accurate as the newer primes (but then neither is the 24-70 Mk II). More in a week or so.
Roger
Martin ·
Wow! I foumd your findings just amazing. Thatt is one of the best or the the best analysis seen in internet. Unfortunately i have some serious issues with my 5d3 AF. It was serviced several tmes and calibrated but 135
L is not working properly on longer distance. Also I have tested 8 samples of 50 1.4 and found that it can’t focus properly on short distance. All samples were backfocusing on short distance up to 1,5 meter. Have no idea if thats a camera problem or lens itself. After my experience with Canon i am considering a d800 as i did not have eny issues with other nikon bodies. I would be so grateful if you test d800 vs 5d3 in AF area. I am really looking forward to seeing such an artcle. Thank you once more for your great work and effort. Priceless.
Roger Cicala ·
Martin,
It’s been done, although not directly. The Nikon AF article shows the D800 and D4 are better than previous Nikon cameras, but not quite as good as the 5D III.
There will be another article in a bit, BTW, that mentions the lens part in this equation. The Canon 50mm f/1.4 is the least accurate autofocusing lens in the lineup, partly because it has so few ‘steps’ in it’s movements.
Roger
Martin ·
Thanks for reply Roger. I am not sure I understand you correctly regarding D800, however I could not find any articles about D800 AF in the blog.
If I understood you properly it means that 50’s motor does not move smoothly but in some kind of steps which are more “distanced” compared to more sophisticated lens.
I have heard a lot about 50 1.4 AF inaccuracy, however I have no idea why there is such a problem in my camera with that lens or… it is not?. I checked a few new copies, and found the same behaviour. On distance up to ~1 meter, all the copies (one was adjusted with service) were back focusing @ 1.4 and when I set aperture @4 the back focus was even bigger. I never heard about shift focus in that lens from many user so I was pretty sure that there is a problem with my camera (Canon service exchanged the mirror box after purchase as there was a significant misalignment of AF sensor so I though something went wrong). The 50 1.4 spec. shows that that lens focus from 0,45m but all tested copies did not focus correctly up to specific distance. I never heard from any users or review about this issue in 50 1.4 so I wonder if that is a general behaviour or camera specific problem.
I have also an idea for other test. I am wondering what are differences in camera AF precision/tendency when focusing in different light situations (day vs incandescent). just in case you have some free time…
Once more-great work!
Florian Uhlemann ·
Hello Roger,
I’m very, very amazed by the work you do. I have completed a statistics class in college and that type of stuff is so interesting. So I understand what your trying to say.
The more interesting thing is that certain lenses now have the rotation detectors or STM.
Now what I am really curious is If the new 35mm f2.0 IS follows the same principle as the 28 1.8 IS, and if the 24-70 mkii is also better at focusing with 5d3 1dx. But I think you mentioned above that it won’t be.
Keep up this excellent work as you are one of the few that does it passionately. 🙂
Thanks
Florian
John Leslie ·
Roger – I wonder if you have read Reikan’s work on Contrast AF, which seems to disagree with your conclusion on how good contrast AF is? I’m using his software to try auto-calibrating my lenses on a 5DmkII, although I haven’t come to a conclusion on how much I like it yet – have you tried it?
Anyway, here’s the link:
http://www.reikan.co.uk/focalweb/index.php/2012/12/af-consistency-comparison-nikon-canon-phase-detect-contrast-detect/
Cheers
John
Roger Cicala ·
Hi John,
I did, and we’ve corresponded a bit about it. Plus I’ve spent about, oh, way too much time educating myself on autofocus these last 2 months (which is why the posts stopped). One thing I really learned is I had underestimated the complexity (and so has Rich). Doing things the way I was doing I realized (seriously) I’d need many thousand experimental runs to figure out what I want to know.
As to contrast being less accurate, I’ve learned contrast accuracy deteriorates as ISO goes up and lighting goes down much more than phase. So we found contrast very, very accurate — but we were in the lab with 500 watt halogen lights and ISO 200 or 400. I’m not sure about their testing.
The other part is comparing two very different lenses – I have no disagreement with what they saw within Canon or within Nikon, but people are taking the results and comparing the brands. Inappropriate when using a Macro lens at long focusing distances and comparing to a standard range lens meant to work at longer focusing distances.
Anyway, Reikan’s data will be a welcome addition. Obviously I’m not going to figure this stuff out by myself and although a couple of people have volunteered some information, most who know stuff are under nondisclosure agreements not to reveal stuff.
Roger
Panurus ·
Have you a list of the lens with rotation detector?
David ·
Really appreciate this thank you. I’m about to replace our 5Dmk2s with 5DMk3s in our photography studio (for Tv lenses we still use humans 😉
I’m personally interested in focus speed because I want to upgrade from Sony’s new Nex6 with “hybrid autofocus” to a Nikon D5200 or Canon T4i in the hope that a cheap camera and decent lens will give quicker AF.. Do you have a similar test including Nikon cameras? I’m just not sure what to get in this instance. Thank you!
Roger Cicala ·
David, part IV has Nikon cameras. I think the bottom line is the Canon 5D III and 1D4 have the most accurate AF, but other than that I don’t think there’s a difference between Canon and Nikon. And, of course, that’s just still AF, I don’t have any information at all about servo type AF.
David ·
Thanks!
Todd Shaner ·
I recently purchased a Canon 8-15mm F4L fisheye lens and 85mm F1.8 lens for use with my 5D MKII body. I spent quite a bit of time adjusting the autofocus microadjustment with both lenses using various techniques, followed by actual in-field tests for real-world focusing accuracy. What I discovered is that both of these lenses achieve better SD by first manually focusing the lens to a slightly closer focus setting, and then letting the camera autofocus. This is also the case with my Canon 17-40mm F4L lens across the zoom range, which I just received from the Canon Repair depot after an extensive rebuild.
SD results with these lens manually set past infinity before autofocus showed far more inconsistency, sometimes front focusing, and then sometimes and back focusing. The amount of microadjustment required using this “closer” pre-autofocus manual adjustment is much less as follows:
8-15mm F4L -2
85mm F1.8 +4
17-40mm F4L +3
Using this procedure I can achieve very good accuracy and repeatability with the 85mm @ F1.8, which has a very small depth of field. There are some misses for sure, but it’s general due to the phase detection system failing to properly detect and lock on the subject area I’m focusing on due low contrast area and/or edge definition.
I thought I would pass this on to get your thoughts and see if this is something you’ve run across during your testing.
Wilba ·
Since I left a message in August 2012 clarifying that the Ishikawa patent is talking about the control loop _inside_the_lens_ (not the control loop inside the camera), I’ve tested the EOS 650 (the first EOS, from 1987), and found that it behaves exactly the same as contemporary cameras. So it’s simply false that “They used to be open.” EOS has always been a closed-loop AF system, as are Nikon’s, Pentax’s, and Sony’s similar systems. See http://www.dpreview.com/articles/5402438893/busted-the-myth-of-open-loop-phase-detection-autofocus.
Roger Cicala ·
Wilba, I don’t, really don’t, want to debate semantics. If by closed you mean there is at least one follow up reading, with extrapolation of data gained from secondary readings then that’s correct.
If you mean there’s is some confirmation reading that says “this is the correct point”, then I disagree. Phase detection by principle is less accurate the closer it gets to the focus point. Unlike contrast detection, it does not choose a ‘best reading’ point.
There are at least 3 control loops inside a lens, and at least 1 inside a camera. But the overall behavior depends on settings, camera, lens, and a host of other factors including light temperature, strength, others. I’ll add that there’s also a differentiation in lens feedback in different systems and even within system in different lenses. Nikon uses at least 4 different types of position sensors. Canon at least 3. Making a blanket statement that is supposed to cover a gear driven lens with perhaps 700 steps and an older magnetic sensor and also cover a USM driven lens with 3500 steps and a new optical position sensor is making a very, very broad statement indeed.
I don’t absolutely disagree – you may well be correct. But I fear you’re trying to paint a gray picture black and white and I’m hesitant to do that. I’ve seen to many conflicting patents and too much conflicting data cloaked in too much corporate secrecy to be comfortable with that.
But in the interest of not arguing let’s just assume you’re correct and there is a closed feedback loop. If so it’s a fairly inaccurate closed feedback loop, and an inaccurate closed feedback loop isn’t all that different from a semi closed loop in behavior.
Roger
Dave Sucsy ·
Roger,
You’re a gem and a genius! You make all this geeky stuff fun, funny, and even useful!!!
I can’t thank you enough!
If you ever tire of being a lens geek and businessman, there is undoubtedly a great future for you in technical writing, science fiction, or comedy!
Oh. One other thing. If you get bored and need something to do, I’d like to see equivalent information on the Nikon D800/e system and lenses. And the reason for Stonehenge.
Thanks!
Dave
Roger Cicala ·
Dave,
My previous career (well, one of them) was in technical writing: 5 books and uncounted chapters and articles. You can probably tell by my grammer how much I miss having a full-time editor.
Unfortunately, my writing style was 1) set a deadline 3 months from now, and 2) realize 2.5 months from now that I hadn’t done doodly on the article due in two weeks. I need more structure 🙂
Roger
Bill ·
I’m a long-time Canon owner and i refer myself to an advanced hobbyist. How can i know which bodies perform closed-loop focus operations, which bodies have the ability to work with the rotation detectors, and which lenses actually have the sensors to support this finer focusing method? I have some older lenses that I would assume will not have this capability, and some newer ones that I hope do. Further (and this may need to be addressed separately), what about third-party lenses? I happen to prefer Sigma when I’m not finding what I need from Canon.
Thank You.
TTMartin ·
Canon stated that firmware 2 for the 7D was based on lessons learned in developing the 1D X. It would be interesting to see if firmware 2 for the Canon 7D would change the results at all for that camera. i.e. is it a hardware improvement in the newer cameras, a software improvement, or a combination of the two.
CyberDyneSystems ·
Thanks for another fantastic insightful article Roger.
Your hands on dig out the guts and see what they tell us approach is much needed.
I am another that feel the 5DIII is/was a game changer, the fabled “EOS 3D” by a more familiar name. I’ve been enjoying it’s superior AF in a more affordable (and full frame to boot) body very much!
Alex ·
Roger,
I am not trying to be a hole of an ass, but weren’t you referring to a grammar when you mentioned “grammer”?
I know, I can come across as a prick, but believe me I am not…(smiley face)(wink, wink).
Roger Cicala ·
Alex, you are correct. I have major grammar failings – for all of my life before now I’ve had an editor. I never realized how much that encouraged sloppiness in my writing until I didn’t have an editor anymore.
John Bickford ·
What about the Canon 6D? What about the 6D specifically with the 24-105 1.4mm L zoom lens? What about zoom lenses in general?
Tony Webster ·
Sir, whenever you is nex in Barbados, I kin offer you free scenic drive; cupple cold beers; and lessons in how to spik and onderstand bajan language. Tip of my hat to you Zir, on velly amazin articul. Thanks mil for exercizin my brains , or residue thereof. No yoke, when in “Bim”, please advise advace arrival. Would be honor. Camera talk not allowed; jes relax; smell the flying-fish frying; Atlantic breezes will cool over-heated brain. Terif article.
Wilba ·
Hello again. By closed-loop I mean exactly and only what it has always meant – feedback about the state of the thing being controlled is used in working out how to control it while it’s being controlled.
Test any EOS camera with a half-press in One-Shot mode and it will show you that focus is only confirmed when the AF sensor sees an in-focus subject. Only a closed-loop using feedback from the AF sensor can do that. Here are the tests – http://www.dpreview.com/articles/5402438893/busted-the-myth-of-open-loop-phase-detection-autofocus. Don’t assume I’m correct, prove or disprove it for yourself. I’d love to hear how you go with them.
JB ·
Roger, will you have the opportunity to see how the 70D AF stacks up? There seems to be quite a controversy as to whether the 70D has the same phase detect AF system as the 7D, or perhaps even a bit better – unfortunately with all the hubbub about the new LiveView capabilities the phase detect AF system of the 70D has been largely ignored.
Daniel Low ·
Roger,
What a fantastic technical article on Canon autofocus! Mighty thanks for shedding some (a lot) light on accuracy of autofocus of dslr
Peter L ·
Thank you for your excellent experiments and articles on phase detection. I often have problems with autofocus misses on my cheap Canon 1000D, particularly with the old EF 35 mm f/2.
Looking for answers, I stumbled upon another site, which offers some results on autofocus acuuracy:
http://www.optyczne.pl.
It is in Polish, but you can get a reasonably good translation by Google. Some articles have been translated on another site, e.g. on the new EOS 70D:
http://reviews.1001noisycameras.com/canon-70d-at-optyczne-pl/
Keep up the good work!
Anders ·
Note that a closed loop control of the lens’ movement, after determining where to go by a measurement of the AF system, isn’t the same things as a closed loop control of the whole focusing process. Controlling the lens doesn’t close the loop all the way back to once again measuring focus, to figure out if the movement done by the lens not only did move the lens to the desired point but also actually achieved correct focus.
High precision AF points, spread far enough apart to require f/2.8 lenses, have been around for a long time. The diagonal points available in the 5D Mark III and 1DX (pioneered by the 40D) only add high-precision in two perpendicular directions at the same time. Older cameras like the 1D Mark III and 400D also support high precision, but only in one direction.
A novelty, though, within the 1DX is that all points have dual elements in zig-zag configuration for each orientation. That effectively increase the resolution by a factor of two, without sacrificing signal to noise ratio. The AF sensor in the 7D only has three such elements, to compare with one simpler camera.
Igor ·
Thanks Roger, very interesting. I would suggest to test the effect of the light spectrum on the PDAF accuracy. To start with, my 600D/Sigma 17-50f/2.8 OS work perfectly in sunlight, but in skylight there is a considerable backfocus (or may be front, can not remember now). Are there any cameras that are good in this respect there?
Lynn Allan ·
Old article … but you might check with the gurus at MagicLantern to see what they think and may have observed.
Phil ·
Another excellent article.
It would be interesting to hear your views on the EOS 70D controversy. The web has been alight with complaints about this camera’s phase detection and Canon has been silent. I for one had to dial in +15 MFA for a 50mm 1.8 for 2.5m distance, only to find that a figure of +10 was more applicable for much longer distances. The CF point is supposed to be more precise than outer ones, but I did not find this.
The biggest issue was with repeatability and indeed your results for the 7D (assuming the 70D has the same AF sensor) do indicate this camera is worse than others. Even my old 400D was more repeatable!
I could surmise that Canon, with the 70D, has tried to reduce production costs by removing/reducing AF sensor calibration, instead relying upon improved manufacturing tolerances, but has not entirely succeeded. I noticed that German purchasers report far less satisfaction than US purchasers, from looking at Amazon feedback, which is specific to the 70D (i.e not 7D, 60D) so perhaps Germany has been fed from a dodgy production line.
On the other hand, are we just expecting too much from cameras these days? If so, Canon ought to come out and tell us. Your thoughts would be welcomed. Indeed, if you have a chance, if you could have a go at measuring some 70Ds the results would be interesting to read.
Phil.
Derek ·
Roger
A fascinating and valuable article, certainly seems to be the best on the net.
I do however want to raise one point that impacts the conclusion, slightly.
I work in electronics R&D, and amongst other things have to deal with measuring and interpreting the results from multiple samples of the chips we develop. Having been caught out by quoting a certain spread of expected results only to be presented by a wider spread in production I wish to share the culmination of this experience.
“Any measurement of sigma has it’s own sigma, and it’s surprisingly large”
If I measure only 3 samples, I might get a sigma of say 10.
If I measure another 3 samples I could get a sigma of 75.
really.. THAT different, it’s all down to sample size. (the average also moves about)
I finally found that in order to be sure of my measurements I needed to measure 30 devices, calculate the sigma and average, then work out the +/-4 sigma limits, and quote those in documentation as +/-3 sigma limits. Even then I could only be 95% certain that my quoted 3 sigma limits were in fact not set outside the true 3 sigma limits. If I just calculated +/-3 sigma and quoted them as such I’d have a 50% chance for each limit that it would turn out to be worse than quoted.
So what sort of errors are we talking about with sample size?
with 10 items I got an “uncertainty-sigma” or a sigma of my sigma, of 27% of the measurement sigma.
with 30 items this reduced to 12% of measured sigma.
What does this mean?
well in your AF tests.. you had 10 data points per test.
that means where you had a measured sigma of say 30, you would have an uncertainly sigma in that reading of about 8. If you want to be 95% certain that another camera has a better autofocus, then you need at least 2 sigma gap to that other measurement.. i.e. you need a gap of around 16.
Now there is a gap of roughly this amount for the 5DIII and 1Dx vs the rest (with the exception of the 1DIV)
However the other cameras are all sufficiently closely spaced that they could all be producing the exact same accuracy, or even that the 7D could be outperforming the 60D in reality. In order to split that difference you really need something like 30 data points or more.
I just thought you should have some quantifiable way of determining your measurement accuracy and therefore confidence in your results.. I’m sure this AF accuracy question will reappear with the 7DII.
Please take this as constructive criticism of an excellent article. Many many thanks for all your hard work.
Derek
Volker Borchard ·
Roger
Very interesting and helpful article for me.
The main question from my side:
Will you update it with the 7D Mark II data ?
Volker
Roger Cicala ·
Volker, I don’t plan on it. The 7D II AF issues seem to be with AI servo and we have no way to test that. Even just still center spot testing is incredibly time consuming.
Helmut ·
Hi Roger,
great Bolg 🙂
Could this be a conclusion:
The 7D oder a 1DIV from 2009 and the new 100-400 IS II oder 500 IS II aren’t a good combination regarding to the AF-accurancy? Because the older AF System from then bodys couldn’t tale advantage of the AF-System in the lens?
Helmut ·
Hi Roger,
so what are your recommendations?
1D IV and 100-400 IS II: older body, newest lens…did not work?!
7D II and 100-400 IS I :older lens, newest body?!…did not work?!
7D II and 500/4 IS I: older lens, newest body?!…did not work?!
am little bit confused 🙂
discuss21 ·
Great work. I have older Canon camera + third party lenses which do show improved AF with newer Canon lenses. But the AF is still inconsistent. I now understand why looking at your results, I feel quite cheated by Canon & the photographic media. It is as if there have been serious canon AF problems that have been covered up. Photographers work hard to get good photos, but it seems the odds have been stacked against us a very long time. I will switch to Nikon if Nikon AF proves to be superior. I have seen little mention of Nikon AF problems so far. You can enlighten us on general reports. Please, please can you repeat the same AF tests on Nikon cameras & lenses at your earliest convenience? It will be very useful, especially for comparison purposes. Keep up the excellent work. Many thanks. YOur blog is fantastic. Wish I had discovered it long ago. Tony.
Charles Wright ('77-79, '91-92) ·
Coolamungo, Roger Cicala, nice to meet y’all! (First time to stumble by the room in the back where they keep the folks that know are, …)
Finally I am fixing to order me a camera that has focus adjustment, so researching how to do it before it gets here…and found this article..
But, you should have asked me earlier about that “why you also need a “new” lens to go with the patented focus system…(I never knew focusing systems were capable of even earning a patent at this stage in that game, but makes sense now that you told me..but I digress..)
Me, even knowing nothing, would have told you – of course a new lens might now be a lot better, but of course it will have an effect, even if no improvements from old to new copies of that lenses “patentable-stuff.”
You just can’t take a state-of-the-art race car with the latest,greatest handling patented-stuff and race it against another with old tires and not see a difference against the same copy racing with new tires.
Even if no advances in the tires, stuff just gets old and slower, it’s life, I guess…
But anyway hey, thanks…how can I find the articles and stuff from y’all’s previous work? I just need to catch up…
Wilba ·
There’s no need to debate semantics, the distinction between open and closed-loop control actually is black and white – is feedback involved? I’m referring only to what’s happening inside the camera, and in that case the question boils down to, how many measurements of focus error are required to confirm focus? If one, it’s open, if more, it’s closed.
There’s no need to assume anything, just do any of the Squirrel, Extension Tube, Intermittent Illumination, or Manual Focus tests (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/5402438893/busted-the-myth-of-open-loop-phase-detection-autofocus), with the earliest pre-2003 EOS body you can find. Then you will know the answer from first-hand empirical evidence.
CheshireCat ·
Roger, I think this article should be revised according to the exact definitions of “accuracy” and “precision”.
CheshireCat ·
Roger, I think this article should be revised according to the exact definitions of "accuracy" and "precision".
Tom ·
Do you know how far out of focus in terms of subject distance those lp/mm numbers are?
E.g. in the graph above the 5D II performing about 100lp/mm more poorly than the 5D III on average. How far in front or behind the subject would that correspond to for a typical telephoto shot – e.g. a soccer player kicking a ball taken with a 400. Are we talking focussing on their eyebrow instead of the eye, or are we talking about focussing on the wrong person?
Tom ·
Do you know how far out of focus in terms of subject distance those lp/mm numbers are?
E.g. in the graph above the 5D II performing about 100lp/mm more poorly than the 5D III on average. How far in front or behind the subject would that correspond to for a typical telephoto shot - e.g. a soccer player kicking a ball taken with a 400. Are we talking focussing on their eyebrow instead of the eye, or are we talking about focussing on the wrong person?