Lenses and Optics

The Glass in the Path: Sensor Stacks and Adapted Lenses

Published June 6, 2014
Single glass piece from the sensor stack of a Canon (left) and Micro 4/3 (right) camera. Image credit Aaron Closz.

 

NOTE: This is a Geek Post. If you aren’t into geeky photo measurements, or into adapting lenses from one brand of camera to another, you’ll not be interested. 

A year or two ago, I wrote a blog post where I basically showed lenses shot on adapters on other cameras aren’t acceptable for testing. If you run them through Imatest the results aren’t accurate. I suggested that reviewers shouldn’t test lenses on adapters, although obviously adapters are a great way to use interesting lenses to take pictures.

More recently, in online discussions about why certain lenses weren’t working well on certain cameras, I brought up the fact that sensor stacks, the various layers of glass in front of the sensor containing AA filters, IR filters, etc. would be contributing to this problem; that there was more to it than just adapter irregularities. Most people thought that really wasn’t having an effect, though, so I forgot about it.

Yesterday I got a dramatic rude awakening that made me return to this train of thought and do some investigation. The way it happened was simple enough. Dr. Brian Caldwell, the guy who designed the Coastal Optics 60mm Macro, the Metabones Speedboosters focal reducers, and a lot of other cool lenses came to visit.  I’ve had the pleasure of knowing Brian for some time, but I will have to admit his visits (like those of several others) have become just a bit more frequent since we got our MTF bench up and running.

Brian had brought a prototype of his latest focal reducer. He told me it was so good that it clearly improved the MTF of full-frame lenses while increasing their aperture when mounting them to m4/3 cameras. He also brought the computer generated MTF graphs showing what it should do, which was pretty spectacular.

Theoretic curves of the prototype “Perfect” focal reducer, showing what the MTF of a diffraction limited f/1.4 lens would look like reduced to f/1.0. Courtesy Dr. Brian Caldwell

 

Well, we really couldn’t wait to play around with that, so we all gathered by the cheerful glow of the Imagemaster MTF bench and mounted a Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 on it for a test run. As expected, the Otus generated very nice MTF curves.

Then we mounted the focal reducer on the Otus, adjusted the MTF bench for the narrower depth of field and greater aperture, and tested the combination. The results were absolutely awful. We rechecked all our settings and ran it again. Awful. We tweaked some settings. Awful. Here’s an example, of the same side of the same lens with and without the focal reducer straight out of the MTF bench. (I’ve flipped the MTF chart of the lens-with-reducer to make it easy to compare, which is why the numbers are backwards.) We repeated this with several lenses and it’s about the same every time.

Comparison of MTF curves of a single Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 alone (left) and with the ‘Perfect’ focal reducer (right). You don’t need to understand MTF curves to conclude the right side is worse. I know the difference is amazing, but we repeated it with several copies. All were similarly bad.  

The room became really quiet. Then Brian jumped up and said, “Filter stack – the machine doesn’t have a filter stack.” What he meant was that every digital camera has several pieces of glass in front of the sensor. The light leaving the rear of the lens has to pass through this glass before arriving at the sensor. Brian’s design (like that of most lenses) has an optical formula that plans on light rays leaving the lens passing through such a stack before reaching the sensor. Since this adapter is designed for micro 4/3 systems, which have a thick optically stack, the fact that there was no glass in the light path of the optical bench might be causing a problem.

So we found a couple of 2mm pieces of optical glass, mounted them between the lens rear element and the MTF sensor, and ran the tests again. Suddenly the Otus-focal reducer combination was amazingly good. As Brian had promised and predicted, it was a bit better at f/1.0 than the Otus was at f/1.4 (over a smaller angle of view, of course).

 

OK, But What About Regular Lenses?

The MTF results with Brian’s Perfect focal reducer were ridiculously dramatic, and to be honest I didn’t believe the glass could make that much difference. Brian often speaks to me in English because it’s a common language we both understand. But when he gets excited he lapses into his native Theoretical Optical Physics, which I can barely follow.

Luckily, he had brought along his colleague Wilfried Bittner, who speaks both Theoretical Optical Physics and English (although his native language is German). With Wilfried’s aid as translator, I’m pretty sure I understand that at effective apertures under f/1.4, glass in the optical pathway have a huge effect on spherical aberrations, which are apparent even in the center of the lens’ field. So the fact that we were testing what was, in effect, and f/1.0 lens made the results very dramatic.

But I still wanted to see if this had an effect on normal lenses. We put another copy of the Zeiss 55mm f/1.4 on the Imagemaster and tested it. Then we put our 4mm optical glass in the pathway. The image below shows the MTF comparison for the Otus when tested with no glass in the optical pathway compared to same lens with 4mm of optical glass in the pathway. Red, green, and blue lines are for 10, 20, and 30 line pairs/mm.

 

The MTF is better now higher in the center, but there is more astigmatism off-axis. (I was surprised at the on-axis effect, but Brian tells me that the amount of glass in the path creates on-axis spherical aberration that could affect center MTF on wide-aperture lenses. At least that’s what I think he said. Any errors of interpretation are mine.)

But then we realized this is a Canon lens, not an m4/3 lens. Canon cameras, as best we know, have about a 2mm filter stack. So we reduced the glass in the path to 2mm and ran the test again.

 

The 2mm result does seem a bit better over all, compared to the 4mm. The graph below compares the 2mm and 4mm results to hopefully make them easier to compare.

We repeated this for a couple of other Canon wide aperture lenses and found similar results. The MTF bench results are better when there is a 2mm piece of optical glass in the path between the rear of the lens and the bench’s sensor.

So This Should Work the Other Way, Right?

OK, so if micro 4/3 lenses are expected to have a thick sensor stack and m4/3 lenses have to be designed for them seem much better with a thick piece of optical glass in front of the sensor. Canon lenses supposedly have a medium-thickness sensor stack, and lenses designed for them seem best when we put a thinner piece of glass in their optical path.

What about lenses designed for little or no sensor stack? Actually, it’s already been shown they don’t do well on camera with significant sensor stacks. Panavision has made premium lenses for their film cameras for many years. Recently they’ve released their Primo V series of lenses, which are their Primo lenses modified, according to their website to ” eliminate coma, astigmatism, and other aberrations caused by the extra layers of glass in digital cameras.” U. S. Patent application 14/024,578 describes adding additional optics to the existing lenses to correct for the glass in the imaging pathway, that is between the rear of the lens and the camera sensor.

But we like to see for ourselves, so we grabbed a Leica  35mm ASPH Summicron and tried the same tests. Leica is known to use much thinner filter stacks (1mm or so) than the other camera manufacturers. So putting optical glass in the imaging pathway of an older Leica lens should make it worse.

The Leica 35mm ASPH had an odd reversal of astigmatism with sagittal lines improving a bit, but tangential lines getting much worse. Overall I’d say it wasn’t better or worse, just different.  With 4mm of glass in the optical pathway, though, the Leica clearly gets worse. I would have liked to repeat the test with 1mm of optical glass in the pathway, but we didn’t have any 1mm optical flats.

Conclusions

The things I’ve brought up today aren’t unknown, although they aren’t widely talked about. Bruno Massett had an excellent discussion about the theoretical implications almost a year ago in Mike Johnston’s The Online Photographer. Lens designers plan for the thickness of the sensor stack, and others have made corrective lenses to allow very expensive lenses developed for film to be used on digital cinema cameras.

Obviously this isn’t an exhaustive test using a large series of different lenses. The main purpose of this post is to serve as a demonstration of just how much of an effect the sensor stack has. I figured if I was surprised, then some of you would be, too.

Real-World Implications

People in the real world often shoot a lens designed for one size of sensor stack on a camera with a different size. It seems logical that this kind of issue will affect certain combinations. We don’t know which lenses on which cameras will be most affected, but it would seem logical that lenses designed for film cameras and cameras with very thin sensor stacks won’t do well on cameras with thick sensor stacks.

In order to start making some generalizations, a good database of sensor thickness needs to be made public. I’ve only been able to find references to a few. We know Leica is thinnest and I was told micro 4/3 was the thickest at 4mm. I didn’t believe that, so we took a GX1 apart. As you can see from the first picture, it is, indeed very thick and I can confirm it’s a bit over 4mm.

The extra good news is we now have a micro 4/3 camera with absolutely no glass in front of the sensor at all and a really nice piece of 3mm thick cyan glass for a conversation piece. The camera no longer focuses to infinity, of course, but it takes nice pictures in UV/IR/Visible light spectrum, at least up close. (I know what you’re thinking: but no, we didn’t start this article just so we could make a glass-free GX1.)

In daylight, it takes nice UV/IR images. Image capture and camera creation credit: Aaron Closz
Under fluorescents the images almost look like those from a normal camera. Image capture and camera creation credit: Aaron Closz. And no, Darryl doesn’t get to use the new machine. When he works really hard, though, we let him touch it. 

 

I hope to have at least a moderately complete database of sensor thicknesses done and published by early next week. We’re doing some disassembly here to measure sensor glass and have sent some cameras off so the glass can be measured optically. Optical thickness may be somewhat different from measured thickness since different types of glass might be used.  (If you have some knowledge in this area, I’d appreciate an email or comment post. You might save a camera.)

Testing Implications

We may need to make corrections on our optical bench when testing lenses designed to have a certain thickness of glass between their rear element and the sensor. Obviously, we’ll be going back to doing more testing there, too. I suspect, for example, that the numbers I posted in last week’s 50mm article might actually be a tiny bit lower than reality for the Sigma Art and Zeiss Otus lenses.

Or perhaps not. This is a new area and we’ll have to run lots of copies on the bench, and correlate them with Imatest or other complete-systems measurements before we know for sure.

Of course, it’s possible that sensor stack thickness might end up being no big deal. But hey, if it’s important enough for Panavision, it’s important enough for me.

 

Roger Cicala and Aaron Closz, with the assistance of Brian Caldwell and Wilfried Bittner

Lensrentals.com

June, 2014

Author: Roger Cicala

I’m Roger and I am the founder of Lensrentals.com. Hailed as one of the optic nerds here, I enjoy shooting collimated light through 30X microscope objectives in my spare time. When I do take real pictures I like using something different: a Medium format, or Pentax K1, or a Sony RX1R.

Posted in Lenses and Optics
  • ken

    Wait… Do you know when the new metabones adapter with the perfect glass will be available?

  • NancyP

    To add to the comments on telecentric lenses, my 5 year old Canon 400mm f/5.6L is a great lens on digital, although the lens design is from 1991 or 1992, pre-digital. It is possible that Canon made unannounced changes in the lens design to optimize for digital, but it seems likely that they didn’t need to do this.

  • NancyP

    This is very interesting, Roger, I love it when you provide the geeky goodness.
    The sensor glass issue also affects users of old film lenses on digital sensors – zero thickness vs probable ~2mm thickness, in my Canon 6D case. I still enjoy using the old lenses, and don’t expect that they will rise to the glorious heights of Otus.
    The full-spectrum and astrophotography crowds get sensor conversions – if the OEM companies or the companies performing conversion aren’t willing to give out sensor thickness, you might try experienced users. Bjorn Roslett or Enrico Savazzi might be good full-spectrum users to contact. http://www.naturfotograf.com/index2.html (Roslett); http://www.savazzi.net/photography/default.htm (Savazzi) Fun reading, even if you contact them and they don’t have info.

  • Gert F Hansen

    There is a company calld LDP LLC (www.maxmax.com) that converts cameras to IR/UV and also does so called hot-rod conversions where the lo-pass filter is replaced with optical glass of suitable thickness. Might be worth it to give them a call.

    Thanks for the good edutainmaint as allways!

  • Taylor C

    I think what is even more exciting then this article is that this is the first ‘unofficial’ new about the EOS to MTF speedbooster! Hopefully it is as close as it seems.

  • Dave Lively

    The thicker filter stack also has an effect on how visible dust is. The thicker the stack they more you can stop down before it becomes visible. Olympus has a reputation for having a really good dust removal system. After seeing how much thicker the filter stack is it is no wonder dust is less of a problem on m43 cameras.

  • Jn-

    Thanks Roger, superb article, as usual.

  • Scott McMorrow

    Well, that explains why Nikon took the approach they did on the D800/D800E with the AA-filter. The optical path length remains the same in both cameras.

    Also, remember that in measuring sensor glass stacks, it’s not just the thickness but also the index of refraction that determines the optical thickness.

    Thickness x index of refraction = equivalent optical length in air.

  • Brian Caldwell

    Walter: I suspect the switchover from film (zero glass) to digital (with glass) lens design began in the late 1990’s. The Nikon 17-35/2.8, released in 1999 is probably a good example. This lens has a relatively long exit pupil distance compared to earlier lenses like the 25-50/4.0, and so it should work well with both film and digital cameras. Also, in 1999 I did a small consulting job for now extinct Silicon Film to analyze the effect of adding filter glass behind various high-speed film lenses available at that time.

  • Brian Caldwell

    Jn: The Canon 24-105mm f/4 is relatively slow (aperture-wise), and has a fairly long exit pupil distance of slightly greater than 100mm throughout its zoom range. As a result, I think it will function almost identically on both film and digital cameras. The lenses that should have the most sensitivity to filter stack thickness are those that are either really fast, or have a short exit pupil distance, or both.

  • Roger Cicala

    Jn, good questions. I hope to know the answers someday. I assume we’d have the same problems in reverse to some degree, but I don’t know for certain.

  • Malte

    Hi Roger,

    Reading your blog for a while now and really enjoy your writing as well as the knowledge that comes with it. This article remembered me about an old 135mm primes I tried on my K-30. No matter what I did, pics had such a low contrast like they were taken in the fog. Thats when I learned about internal reflections. Which was not a big issue in the film era, where this lens was designed. Other film lenses I tried were not that much affected.

  • Jn-

    What implications does this have for using a digital era designed lens on an old film camera?

    For example, using the Canon 24-85mm film era lens on a Canon Eos 3 film camera may be no problem? but a Canon 24-105mm f4.0 might have?

    Also, are there implications for using film era designed lens on a digital camera?

  • Roger Cicala

    Joe, the more telecentric a lens, if I understand correctly, the less effect the filter stack might have. I haven’t had a chance to check any longer lenses yet. I suspect I’ve opened a can of worms here that we’ll be checking for months.

  • Hi, Roger

    I suspect that you’ll find some exceptions.

    For example, about 1 or 2 years ago, some guy who rents lenses suggested that a film-era Leica 135mm Tele-Elmar would work well as a sharp long prime lens on an Olympus OM-D E-M5. Sadly, there’s still no such compact, long prime lens native to M4/3

    I took that advice, bought a late 1990s 135/4 Tele-Elmar, seated the adapter faces as parallel as possible without a micrometer, then set everything “in stone” with Loc-Tite.

    That adapted Leica 135/4 lens on an E-M5 seems to resolve essentially to the limits of the M4/3 sensor, even to the edges.

    That fella in TN published some pretty good advice. Perhaps longer lenses are less susceptible to induced aberrations because the exiting rays are more or less parallel and perpendicular to the sensor?

  • n/a

    PS: I found filter stack from Olympus EPM2 m43 camera that I disassembled – it is ~2.7mm thick

  • n/a

    Roger – do compare thickness of Olympus m43 filter stack vs Panasonic m43 filter – they might be different

  • CarVac

    Siegfried:

    I doubt that they’d change that parameter; I’m sure that the sensor silicon and the filtration in front of it are not a ‘package deal’.

  • Roger Cicala

    Hey, Zig, I own a Pentax myself! But I don’t write about them as much, that’s true.

    I have only limited data for sensor stacks, but I know there have been some changes within brands. For example of the 3 Canon’s I’ve gotten data on, there’a a range from 1.8 to 2.45mm. Hopefully I’ll have more data soon.

  • Mike

    So…when will this leave the prototype stage…?

  • Roger Cicala

    Chia-Ming, I am too. I think Canon and Nikon stacks are similar in depth, so perhaps it hasn’t been a problem, although I wonder what they are doing now that they make lenses for many brands.

  • David

    Early dEOS bodies had a filter stack of around 2mm. Of course this is a sandwich of various layers: IR reflection, IR absorption, horizontal and vertical AA filters, etc.
    Starting with the the 400D this was split into two pieces of <1mm each. One close to the sensor which stays still (this includes the IR absorption layer) and one over a mm above it which vibrates when shaking off dust (this includes the IR-reflective coating).

    I'm starting to get a bit out of my depth, but have to wonder how the thickness and position of each of these pieces changes the behaviour compared to a single 2mm piece.

  • Chia-Ming Yang

    I’m quite curious about which setting do the 3rd party lenses makers(Sigma, Zeiss, etc.) design for?

  • Walter

    I wonder at what point the camera manufacturers switched from assuming no glass (i.e. film) to whatever thickness they use on their sensors? This won’t just impact adapted lenses; it’ll impact all the late-film-era Canon and Nikon lenses that can be used natively on their DSLR’s.

    I recall that when Four Thirds initially came out, the Olympus lens+body combinations tested as incredibly sharp; perhaps this is because they were uniquely for their time designed from the ground up for the thickness of glass used in the 4/3 cameras rather than being designed for film?

  • Siegfried

    Roger,
    I wonder about glass thickness differences on the same sensor but in different DSLR bodies. E.g. we all know that Sony sensors have made their way into their own cameras, as well as Nikon and Pentax rivals. And fwiw I know the last brand isn’t that popular in your blog (and there must be reasons for that, obviously), but I look forward to seeing it to be included into your sensor glass thickness database.

    And by the way, are you sure that sensor filter thickness is a constant for a given camera system, I mean to say that they don’t change it when they release a new model? I wouldn’t be much surprised to see Pentax changed that parameter when they moved back to Sony sensor from Samsung. Maybe the other makes also adjust it from model to model. Or maybe not.

    Thanks,
    Zig

  • SoulNibbler

    Ya know… since you are getting good at it, next time you get a scratched A7(r) you can see if the M wide angle issue is really the result of the IR filter stack. With adapted lenses it should even be possible make a thinner adapter.

  • Vincent

    Roger, you really must stop publishing such useful and factual information. Photographers like to debate with each other using anecdotal “facts” and are not ready to deal with real data. You run the risk of ending pointless Internet debates which will result in decreased traffic and ad revenues for photography websites.

  • Mike

    Makes you kind of wonder about what we’re loosing when adapting film lenses…

  • Roger Cicala

    Joel, sometimes I write stuff that’s not geeky. I think. Well, yeah, maybe you’re right. . . .

  • Joel M

    Wow, that was quite the eye-opener – no wonder adapted lenses never reach optimum sharpness, even when binning for the perfect lens combination.

    I wonder what implications this has for Sigma’s mount conversion service – Perhaps in addition to replacing the mount and focusing electronics, they will also need to swap an element to change the level of correction for a different manufacturer’s stack thickness.

    By the way Roger, you could probably put your “NOTE: This is a Geek Post” warning at the top of all posts, but replace “Post” with “Blog”. Just sayin’

Follow on Feedly