Things You Didn’t Want to Know About Zoom Lenses
The intersection (perhaps collision is a better word) of art and science is interesting. The scientist says “your impression is not as important as my facts.” The artists say “my impression is all that matters.” Imaging is that way. The photographer or videographer getting the look he wants from a piece of equipment is all that really matters; it’s the ultimate bottom line. So I completely understand when the artist tells me that all testing in the world doesn’t influence his choice of equipment at all. I accept when he or she says a lens is perfect for them. That’s the bottom line.
While I defer to the person taking the shots when they tell me what equipment works for them, I still don’t believe that general ignorance and disinformation is a good thing. With that in mind I’m going to address something I see repeated online all the damn time that just sets my scientific teeth on edge: This zoom is just as good as a prime. (And its corollary, I want a great copy of this zoom.)
To do this, we’re going to do science, which means I have to show you my testing methods and what they mean. (If we weren’t going to do science, I’d just say this one rates 82.7 and this one 79.2 using our special rating system you can’t understand, and the article could be really short like our editors want. Editors hate me pretty much).
It’s going to start with some MTF graphs, which I know a lot of people don’t understand and don’t want to learn, but that part will be mercifully brief, and then there will be pictures. So hang in there for a screen or two. To help make it easier, I’m also going to use our new experimental subliminal text feature to give you subconscious encouragement – you won’t even notice you’re getting positive messages to your subconscious, you’ll just have a feeling of well-being and accomplishment.
Here Comes the Sciencey Stuff, But Without Any Math, so It Isn’t Bad
You can handle this, I promise.
OK, most of you have seen MTF charts. Even if you don’t understand them, you’ve got a general idea that higher is better. And you probably compared one lens to another on at least that basis. The MTF charts you’re used to seeing, show the average of a lot of different lenses (if Zeiss, Leica, or I made them), or a computer generated best-case scenario (if anyone else made them). They show what half of the lens should perform like from the center (left side) to the edge of the image (right side).
If I show the MTF graphs for two different lenses, like this, you’d be able to conclude that the one on the left has better resolution than the one on the right. You could actually find lots of other things if you speak MTF, but I won’t push it. We’ll stick with higher is sharper for this.

But that’s either an idealized computer generation or the average of lots of lenses. What if we actually test one single copy of the lens? Well the first thing you’d notice is now we show both sides of the lens; the center is now in the center instead of on the left side. The second thing you’d notice is one side is a bit different than the other. Because when you manufacture something, it’s never perfect. So here’s an MTF of one of the lenses that went into the average above on the left.

The left side is a little different than the right side, isn’t it? But wait, if one side is different than the other, what about top-to-bottom? Or corner-to-corner? So if we really want to test a lens, we have to do it several times, rotating it, so we test the different quadrants. So here’s that same lens, tested at four rotations.

Hang on; we’re almost done with this part. Not much longer. You can do it!!
That’s four rotations. I could show you 8 and 12 rotations, but the charts would be really small, and you’re already really bored. You’re probably thinking “can’t you just tell me it’s a 79.2/100 instead of all this?”
So how about instead of that we just make a picture showing you how the MTFs map out around the surface of the lens. Below is a map of the sagittal MTF with blue showing where the lens is sharpest, yellow a bit less sharp, and red (there isn’t any here) not very sharp.

That’s a lot more intuitive, isn’t it? You can see this lens is well centered (highest MTF in the middle) and just a tiny bit softer on the right side than the left. I’ll show you later, but you would not notice that tiny bit of softer on an at-home test. The MTF bench is more sensitive than any camera (so far).
We can also look at maps for other things. Below, for example, is the astigmatism map of the same lens.
Look at the lovely colors. You feel relaxed and at peace. The MTFey stuff is over now.

You can see there’s a bit more astigmatism at the far edge on the right with this lens. My point in all this is that the maps are an easy way to evaluate a single copy of a lens at a glance. I’m going to show you a bunch of these pictures, so I wanted you to know how we got them.
So Can We Really See This in a Photo
Well, I did say that the bench is more sensitive than your camera. Subtle differences the bench may see are going to be masked by the other variables a photo has – lighting, focus, framing, and on-and-on. But big differences are going to be obvious. How big? Well, let’s look at maps for two copies of a lens, one of which is excellent, one of which is not. (It’s actually not awful, the only failing area on this lens is the red part at the bottom.) If you shot with it, you’d probably say it was an OK lens, or maybe a little soft. If you shot with the other one, you would say it was special.
(The map for this lens appears cut-off compared to the one above. That’s just because this lens has a built-in baffle to reduce light reflection, so its image is kind of rectangular, like a sensor, rather than round like the one above.)

I know you like pretty photographs to make comparisons on, but a scenic shot has too many variables, and we’re trying to be all scientific. So you’ll have to make do with test chart photographs.
First let’s compare the top center area, which was excellent on the right lens and OK on the left one. To fit 100% crops in this God-forsaken blog platform, I’ll have to put them on top of each other, so the right lens is on top, the left on the bottom. These are unsharpened from RAW images of our high-resolution test charts taken with a 36-megapixel camera. The difference would be a bit more impressive at higher resolution, a bit less at a lower resolution, but this is sufficient for our purposes.

I can see a difference; I suspect you can too. Remember test charts are more sensitive than a photograph. If I reshot this as a jpg with in-camera sharpening the difference would be smaller. If you took actual pictures of things instead of lines, you would probably notice a slight difference if you compared the two lenses side-by-side. But if you just had bought the left-hand lens you probably wouldn’t be screaming the top is soft, especially after you did some post processing and posted it as an 800-pixel jpg online.
Now let’s look at the bottom left quadrant. Again, the right lens is on top and the left on the bottom.

The difference is greater now. You probably can notice that this lower corner probably isn’t OK. The tangential test lines (the ones going top left to bottom right) are really gray-on-gray, and so detail is being lost. OK, enough of this. My only point is that the MTF maps we’re using do reflect real-world images.
So What? Are We Getting to the Part About Zooms Yet?
Almost, my patient friends. And this won’t take long to show you now that we’ve gotten the concepts out of the way.
A lot of people are aware that while a zoom can be as sharp as a prime in the center of the image, it rarely is in the corners.
Few people, though, think about that fact that zooms are far more complex than primes. Where a prime usually has 6 to 12 elements, zooms often have around 20. And while primes have a single group moving to focus, zooms have moving focusing, zoom elements moving (sometimes several zoom elements), and possibly a compensating element. Increased complexity causes increased variability.
So let’s take a look at MTF Maps for a group of good prime lenses. Here are 9 actual lenses, tested just like the ones we showed you above. I’ll go ahead and tell you (because someone will notice) these are f/2.8 primes; no f/1.4 prime could resolve 30 line pairs this well. I’ll also add that one of these lenses had been dropped on rental but ‘suffered no apparent damage.’ Want to guess which one?
Blue is the soothing color of razor sharp images.

You probably guessed that the center lens on the right looks bad on a test chart (it does when compared to the others). If you look carefully, you can see the lower left lens has an area that’s a tiny bit soft, and you could notice that if you looked closely enough. The others all perform identically; the small differences we see on the bench aren’t apparent even on the highest resolution test charts.
If you ask me to pick you out a really good copy from this set of lenses, I will send you any of the three diagonal from top left to lower right. (Just so we get it out of the way, if you wonder what it costs for me to test 9 lenses and pick you out the best one then you can’t afford it.) But if I sent you one of the other three with no yellow in them, I’m confident you could not tell the difference in photographs.
Here Are the Zooms
Now let’s look at maps for several copies of a good, $2,000 zoom lens. You probably have already guessed that a good zoom is going to be more variable than the good prime. You probably tried to avoid thinking about the fact that we also have to look at several focal lengths. Everyone likes to think ‘good copy — bad copy’ like they would with a prime, but it doesn’t exactly work out that way with a zoom.
So here’s a set of eight 70-200mm f/2.8 zooms tested the same way, but with each one tested at three focal lengths.

I told you in the title that you didn’t want to know. But it will be OK. Breathe.
First, let me assure you this isn’t peculiar to this particular lens, to this zoom range, or anything else. We’ve tested thousands of zoom lenses. This is how they are with very few exceptions. Some are sharper overall. Some have a tendency to do better at one end or the other. Good performance of a copy at one focal length doesn’t particularly predict good performance at a different focal length. I will add, though, that terrible at one focal length does predict really bad at others.
Remember, this is an optical bench, and it makes small differences seem big. As you remember from before, the yellowy-green areas will look a bit soft on the test chart, but won’t scream at you in a real photo. Red areas might scream at you, though. I’m comfortable that most of you who looked carefully would notice that #7 at 70mm is not as good on one side as the other. Still, the red areas we see above are at an edge or side and might never be noticed by a sports shooter or portrait photographer who usually centers the subject.
The point here is a good copy of a typical zoom will be a little tilted this way at one focal length, maybe a tiny bit decentered at another, then tilted a different way at the other end. Or some variation on the theme. If you look carefully, you’ll notice it.
For example, if you had both #6 and #4 and compared them side by side; there’s no doubt you’d like #6 better at 200mm. But if you just got #4 you’d probably say it was okay. The owner of #6 is going to say the lens is clearly sharper at 200mm than at 70mm, the owner of #4 would that it’s actually a little sharper at 70mm. The people who own #1 and #8 would get online and tell both of those folks that they were obviously bad photographers because the lens seems about the same throughout the zoom range. The owner of #8 would probably be happy with his copy unless he went out shooting with the owner of #1.
Before you get too analytical about all this, remember this is just the sagittal graph. We’d also look at the tangential graphs (or the astigmatism graph which would show us the difference between sagittal and tangential). For example, looking just at the maps above, #3 looks like one of the better copies at 200mm, but if you look at its astigmatism graph, it’s one of the worst at that focal length.

Don’t get me wrong. Zooms don’t suck. They’re excellent and very practical lenses. If you knew all the compromises that go into making one, you’d be as amazed as I am that they can make them that good for those prices. Let me add that if forum warriors posted 800 or 1200 pixel-wide images online, you’d probably barely be able to tell the difference between the primes and zooms, much less the differences between the zooms.
My point simply is that zooms vary more than primes in general, and a given copy of a zoom will vary at different focal lengths. The laws of physics and manufacturing tolerances told us it would be this way. Put more variables into a lens, and the lens varies more. Can they still be very good? Absolutely. Can they be as good as the best primes? Nope. On the other hand, the best primes don’t zoom worth a damn. Horses for courses.
So What Does It Mean?
There are no stupid questions. But there are stupid comments on forums. I will try not to make those.
For practical photography not much really, other than just to make you more aware of reality. Here are the few takeaway messages for photographers:
- A great zoom is not as good as a good prime at comparable apertures, but it’s plenty good, especially in the center of the image.
- Zooms have more variation, and most copies of a given zoom will vary at different focal lengths. If someone asks me for the best copy of a zoom, my first response would always be ‘at which focal length?’ In this case, the sharpest copy at 200mm is not the sharpest at 70mm.
But for measurebating, there is a very pertinent point that needs to be made: Measurebating zooms is a fool’s errand. These differences may not be huge in your photographs, but they are very significant on a test. The reviewer who got lens #6 is going to have different conclusions and present you with different numbers than the reviewer who tested #1 or #8.
Some reviewer somewhere tested a single copy of a zoom lens and gave it their highest rating ever. Some people actually argued online about that, and then asked my opinion about that argument. So I wrote this post to explain why I thought it was all meaningless. When someone compresses something as complex as the multi-focal length performance of a zoom lens into a single number after testing a single copy, I don’t really care if their number is 3.1415926, 2.718281828 or 1.61803398; it doesn’t have any scientific value at all. Unless the rating is 42. Then it would have a meaning.
That was really funny. You should laugh now. And eat Avocados.
Roger Cicala and Aaron Closz
Lensrentals.com
February, 2017
574 Comments
Greg Dunn ·
How terribly geeky I am that I recognized all 4 of those numbers…
“OK, most of you have seen MTF charts. Even if you don’t understand them…” Because of people like you, Roger, we’re all a little smarter. That’s a good thing.
Athanasius Kirchner ·
Why would Roger discriminate against e and ?? As if those two were meaningless…
Roger Cicala ·
I just want to say I got a warm fuzzy feeling after seeing that the first two people to comment got my little joke.
Steve Brulé ·
It was inspired! …. 42 … the perfect ending!
Steve Brulé ·
It was inspired! .... 42 ... the perfect ending!
Lemon ·
Can’t forget ?
Michael Clark ·
Douglas Adams got it wrong. x-1=1/x is the real meaning of life.
Bob Thane ·
Dude, for photographers the golden ratio is even more meaningful!
Greg Dunn ·
How terribly geeky I am that I recognized all 4 of those numbers...
"OK, most of you have seen MTF charts. Even if you don’t understand them..." Because of people like you, Roger, we're all a little smarter. That's a good thing.
Athanasius Kirchner ·
Why would Roger discriminate against e and π? As if those two were meaningless...
Lemon ·
Can't forget φ
Andrew ·
Hahahahaha! 42. Bahahahahaha!
DA ·
Great article – thx for the work. The variance is more than I would have suspected. I am eating avocados as I type so plz excuse any slyppos….oops. It would be interesting to see some real world images taken with say zoom #6 v zoom #1 v zoom #7 or #2 to compare the actual effects in the field.
Also, as far as testing a single lens (or camera) sample – yes it’s problematic for a variety of reasons. Your methodology of testing several/many copies is far superior. 42x superior. But a single lens sample test can still present valid data and add to the knowledge base. A very good test result tells you that that result is possible – you might get a very good lens, but it says nothing about QA and/or variance problems which could be rampant or minor – so you might get a bad lens! How likely is that? We don’t know from this data – hopefully someone else has more data. A bad test result says there are at the least QA issues with that lens and maybe a lot more… So I wouldn’t want to make a decision based solely on a single sample test, but the test data does add to the knowledge of the lens. A great reason to look at multiple reviews of a lens – they’re testing different samples.
Again, thanks for this!
Roger Cicala ·
DA I completely agree. A good lens review is worth it’s weight and gold. I object to compressing a review into a single number and pretending that means very much. I’d be all for calling lenses an 8 or 9 after a review. But when people say one is a 985 and the other and 994 I get upset. Because of the copies I showed you, there’s certainly plenty of variation to call one a 985 and another a 994. You know why I think they do that? Because it will rile up Fanboys and get the review site’s name repeated 6,543 times. They don’t care if it’s good or bad comments, Google just picks up the name mention.
DSG ·
Great article - thx for the work. The variance is more than I would have suspected. I am eating avocados as I type so plz excuse any slyppos....oops. It would be interesting to see some real world images taken with say zoom #6 v zoom #1 v zoom #7 or #2 to compare the actual effects in the field.
Also, as far as testing a single lens (or camera) sample - yes it's problematic for a variety of reasons. Your methodology of testing several/many copies is far superior. 42x superior. But a single lens sample test can still present valid data and add to the knowledge base. A very good test result tells you that that result is possible - you might get a very good lens, but it says nothing about QA and/or variance problems which could be rampant or minor - so you might get a bad lens! How likely is that? We don't know from this data - hopefully someone else has more data. A bad test result says there are at the least QA issues with that lens and maybe a lot more... So I wouldn't want to make a decision based solely on a single sample test, but the test data does add to the knowledge of the lens. A great reason to look at multiple reviews of a lens - they're testing different samples.
Again, thanks for this!
Roger Cicala ·
DA I completely agree. A good lens review is worth it's weight in gold. I object to compressing a review into a single number and pretending that means very much. I'd be all for calling lenses an 8 or 9 after a review. But when people say one is a 985 and the other and 994 I get upset. Because of the copies I showed you, there's certainly plenty of variation to call one a 985 and another a 994. You know why I think they do that? Because it will rile up Fanboys and get the review site's name repeated 6,543 times. They don't care if it's good or bad comments, Google just picks up the name mention.
J.Murphy ·
Awesome post. Everyone should read this before each lens review they read.
Poupic ·
No! They should start using single focal lenses they can afford. Changing lens in modern camera’s is not that Hard.
davev8 ·
good idea at the next wedding i will have 70,85, 100,135,150. and 200mm lenses for one body and on the other i will have 24,28,35,50,and 70mm and swop them every few seconds
Poupic ·
That is how we operated in journalism. Except that we did not carry for every occasion virtual duplicated by using 24, 28 or 35, 50. Nice try though! You know numbers.
Edward Lorenzo ·
I’ve shot maybe 100 weddings. My best work is always with 2 primes. One on each body. Not counting big groups where we shoot with an ultrawide zoom that never zoomed in.
Challenge yourself shooting a Wending with one prime a 50 you’ll never go back.
The real problem with zooms are having too many options for focal length that throws off your best composition potential at a given moment. Many have said this
Lensman ·
I've shot maybe 100 weddings. My best work is always with 2 primes. One on each body. Not counting big groups where we shoot with an ultrawide zoom that never zoomed in.
Challenge yourself shooting a Wending with one prime a 50 you'll never go back.
The real problem with zooms are having too many options for focal length that throws off your best composition potential at a given moment. Many have said this
Hysz ·
I have sigma 20mm 1.8 [old], Nikon 35mm 1.8, Nikon 50mm 1.4, Nikon 85mm 1.8G, and ‘the rockstar’ Nikon 28-80 3.3-5.6G lens, the last one was bought for 15$ used, and it blew me [positively] with it’s IQ, lol. And yeah, I have one body only, and I use all lenses when I am covering weddings, mostly use 35mm, but indoor group shot? Nah, gotta go wider, 1st dance usually 85 or 50, depending on how big the place is. And I can do it all day and night, when changed, they get rear cap on, and if I have time maybe even front one. For wedding sessions though, I take em all but 85 and 20mm gets most love.
Hysz ·
I have sigma 20mm 1.8 [old], Nikon 35mm 1.8, Nikon 50mm 1.4, Nikon 85mm 1.8G, and 'the rockstar' Nikon 28-80 3.3-5.6G lens, the last one was bought for 15$ used, and it blew me [positively] with it's IQ, lol. And yeah, I have one body only, and I use all lenses when I am covering weddings, mostly use 35mm, but indoor group shot? Nah, gotta go wider, 1st dance usually 85 or 50, depending on how big the place is. And I can do it all day and night, when changed, they get rear cap on, and if I have time maybe even front one. For wedding sessions though, I take em all but 85 and 20mm gets most love.
Steinar Knai ·
Unless you move your d…. feet 🙂
Steinar Knai ·
Unless you move your d.... feet :) I do my best weddings with two bodies, one with a 35mm, one with an 85. Plus a 20mm in my pocket. Just the fact that they are f1.8 instead of 2.8 makes a big difference in the necessity for a flash (and since I started using a D500, I hardly use a flash at all, it's that good in low light)
Y.A. ·
Is this a joke? My recent trip to Europe with mostly primes prompted me to sell all of them off for zooms. Well almost all. I couldn’t let go of the 40 2.8
Poupic ·
If it is to make easy and not having change lenses, I have a great idea. Sell all of your zooms and buy a cell phone and use it as a camera. NOw this convenience, right?
Y.A. ·
No, because a cell phone cannot zoom and track my dog running through the yard or get me 14 bits of dynamic range. Everyone doesn’t have to do things your way, me using zooms has no effect on your life.
Poupic ·
It seems that the most important thing for you is to make it easy. A cell phone is the easiest. Small, multitasking and it can take picxtures of your dog running. In your case this would be a dream since quality is not the primary interest you hope for.
Y.A. ·
Wanting convenience hardly equates to not caring about quality at all. And how things seem to you is irrelevant in the context of your low reading comprehension skills, emotional investment in shooting primes and hyperbolic exaggerations of any view contrary to yours. If people who shot zooms didn’t care about quality there would be no high end zooms. Nothing you are saying makes any sense.
Poupic ·
Of course, reading you. I understand your affliction. Bye!
Busha Busha ·
Wanting convenience hardly equates to not caring about quality at all. And how things seem to you is irrelevant in the context of your low reading comprehension skills, emotional investment in shooting primes and hyperbolic exaggerations of any view contrary to yours. If people who shot zooms didn't care about quality there would be no high end zooms. Nothing you are saying makes any sense.
Busha Busha ·
No, because a cell phone cannot zoom and track my dog running through the yard or get me 14 bits of dynamic range. Everyone doesn't have to do things your way, me using zooms has no effect on your life.
Busha Busha ·
Is this a joke? My recent trip to Europe with mostly primes prompted me to sell all of them off for zooms. Well almost all. I couldn't let go of the 40 2.8
Andre Yew ·
Roger, thanks for the very informative post! It’s well worth reading every word of it, if your editors should ask.
I’m curious which if any of the 9 prime lens samples would be unacceptable for rental, or are those all considered to have acceptable performance for rentals? On the lensauthority.com rating scale, would all 9 samples be considered to have acceptable performance within the normal limits, ie. the green camera icon?
Roger Cicala ·
Andre, a good question. The one lens (middle right) was not OK, it failed overall resolution and had to be fixed. The lower left lens passes all our standards (and ours our higher than the manufacturer) with this lens.
Andre Yew ·
Awesome, thanks Roger! It’s great to get a calibration on the quality reflected in the MTF charts.
Andre Yew ·
Roger, thanks for the very informative post! It's well worth reading every word of it, if your editors should ask.
I'm curious which if any of the 9 prime lens samples would be unacceptable for rental, or are those all considered to have acceptable performance for rentals? On the lensauthority.com rating scale, would all 9 samples be considered to have acceptable performance within the normal limits, ie. the green camera icon?
Roger Cicala ·
Andre, a good question. The one lens (middle right) was not OK, it failed overall resolution and had to be fixed. The lower left lens passes all our standards (and ours our higher than the manufacturer) with this lens. But it got rechecked carefully, it was on the borderline.
Andre Yew ·
Awesome, thanks Roger! It's great to get a calibration on the quality reflected in the MTF charts.
Athanasius Kirchner ·
Great work Roger, thanks a lot for showing us the ugly side of zooms. I’m beyond caring about this, though – for my personal photography, whenever I buy a lens I’ve resigned myself to simply shoot a lot and compare the results against my now very extensive image archive. If they’re as good or better than my previous keepers, the lens is approved and I’m happy.
I’d go insane otherwise @_@
Roger Cicala ·
Athanasius, I’m actually the same way. I pull a lens off the shelf, take it home for the weekend and make pictures with it. I don’t even think about where it ranks on the sharpness scale. I love testing and think it has purpose. But it doesn’t serve the purpose many people would like; telling them this lens is best and this isn’t. Things are way more complex than that.
Athanasius Kirchner ·
Absolutely. That’s not to say that I don’t look for tests when evaluating a purchase, as there are many disappointing designs out there, but I just don’t obsess about it anymore.
I love your tests in a scientific way, though, as a benchmark of what’s possible with today’s optics, and what could be called “normal” or at least “acceptable”.
Patrick Chase ·
I think that having the measurements is extremely helpful to establish acceptability ranges once you suspect a problem.
For example I recently bought a very highly-regarded zoom, and thought I saw softness on one side, and particularly one corner on that side, at longer focal lengths in “real” images. I shot an ISO target, and observed that my sample had zero MTF at ~30 lp/mm and negative MTF (8 lines instead of 9) above that in the suspect corner.
You had published variability data for that lens, which made it easy to determine that that corner was >3 standard deviations below average, so I sent it back (the first time I’ve ever done so with a new lens btw). Without that data it would be a lot harder to make decisions like that rationally.
Athanasius Kirchner ·
Great work Roger, thanks a lot for showing us the ugly side of zooms. I'm beyond caring about this, though - for my personal photography, whenever I buy a lens I've resigned myself to simply shoot a lot and compare the results against my now very extensive image archive. If they're as good or better than my previous keepers, the lens is approved and I'm happy.
I'd go insane otherwise @_@
Roger Cicala ·
Athanasius, I'm actually the same way. I pull a lens off the shelf, take it home for the weekend and make pictures with it. I don't even think about where it ranks on the sharpness scale. I love testing and think it has purpose. But it doesn't serve the purpose many people would like; telling them this lens is best and this isn't. Things are way more complex than that.
Athanasius Kirchner ·
Absolutely. That's not to say that I don't look for tests when evaluating a purchase, as there are many disappointing designs out there, but I just don't obsess about it anymore.
I love your tests in a scientific way, though, as a benchmark of what's possible with today's optics, and what could be called "normal" or at least "acceptable".
Patrick Chase ·
I think that the measurements are extremely helpful to establish an acceptability range once you suspect a problem.
For example I recently bought a very highly-regarded zoom and thought I saw softness on one side, and particularly one corner on that side, at longer focal lengths in "real" images. I shot an ISO target, and observed that my sample had zero MTF at ~30 lp/mm and negative MTF (8 lines instead of 9) above that in the suspect corner.
You had published variability data for that lens, which made it easy to determine that that corner was >3 standard deviations below average, so I sent it back (the first time I've ever done so with a new lens btw). Without that data it would be a lot harder to make a rational decision.
Patrick Chase ·
I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that the un-named prime you used was a supertele, maybe a 300/2.8 or 400/2.8.?
Brandon Dube ·
Nope, think closer to 100mm 🙂
Superteles don’t look that smooth – there are vibrations that cause little ripples in the MTF as a measurement artifact.
Patrick Chase ·
Yeah, I realized it could be a 100 mm macro lens after I posted. I didn’t know about the ripple issue in superteles though.
Brandon Dube ·
Vibrations are one of the biggest reasons we usually stay away from superteles.
Bob Thane ·
Would it be possible to stabilize the lens and get no vibrations with a more robust clamping apparatus? Probably more expensive than it’s worth, but still curious if it’s possible.
Brandon Dube ·
Sure, but we’re already talking $300k for our MTF bench. You can buy million dollar MTF benches that have, among other things, stronger/sturdier support platforms for the lens under test.
Bob Thane ·
Interesting – do other companies, like the lens makers use equipment like this? I heard that some makers just put the lens on a sensor and test resolution with charts, but I’d assume some companies have tech at least as advanced as this.
Brandon Dube ·
Depends who “the lens makers” are. The consumer lens manufactures like Canon, Nikon, Sony, Sigma, etc, by and large have very unsophisticated testing. Some use bookshelves, others use a few very thick black lines painted on the wall in the corner of a room, I think you get the idea. Zeiss does have their own MTF benches – the K8 and K9. Supposedly each factory has at least one. One certainly can’t keep up with the volume of lenses a factory puts out, and I don’t think the K8/K9 are very good MTF benches.
Leica also makes their own MTF benches.
Their bottom line is that they’re churning out 10 million lenses a year or whatever the volume and consumers didn’t care before and mostly don’t care now. There’s no sense incurring the cost and losing time to test each lens on an MTF bench.
In the US, e.g. Jenoptik has equipment as advanced as the MTF bench, and some interferometric setups that are much more advanced.
Cell phones and backup cams are tested very well on machines that work very similar to our MTF bench. It is fairly ironic that a $10 camera module is tested so much better a $10,000 lens like a supertelephoto.
Impulse_Vigil ·
Wait why are phone camera modules better tested? Because it’s cheaper/simpler?
Brandon Dube ·
They’re smaller, which makes the mechanical aspects of testing easier. I don’t really have more reason than that.
Phone sensors have very very small pixels, so the lenses are tested around 400lp/mm (8x higher than we do for DSLR/MILC lenses).
The cost really isn’t so insurmountable. Perhaps it is because Apple and Samsung believe in higher quality. Perhaps it is because they got into this whole lenses thing many decades after the consumer lens manufactures, in an era where MTF testing is common and reasonable in terms of cost.
Impulse_Vigil ·
Very interesting… I wonder how susceptible to bumps all that precision is, considering how much more a phone is knocked around (than an ILC lens) on average… I imagine that depends as much on how the module is mounted as the module itself tho.
Brandon Dube ·
There’s less mass when the optics are tiny, making them less susceptible to misalignment from handling.
Bob Thane ·
Would it be possible to stabilize the lens and get no vibrations with a more robust clamping apparatus? Probably more expensive than it's worth, but still curious if it's possible.
Brandon Dube ·
Sure, but we're already talking $300k for our MTF bench. You can buy million dollar MTF benches that have, among other things, stronger/sturdier support platforms for the lens under test.
Bob Thane ·
Interesting - do other companies, like the lens makers use equipment like this? I heard that some makers just put the lens on a sensor and test resolution with charts, but I'd assume some companies have tech at least as advanced as this.
Brandon Dube ·
Depends who "the lens makers" are. The consumer lens manufactures like Canon, Nikon, Sony, Sigma, etc, by and large have very unsophisticated testing. Some use bookshelves, others use a few very thick black lines painted on the wall in the corner of a room, I think you get the idea. Zeiss does have their own MTF benches - the K8 and K9. Supposedly each factory has at least one. One certainly can't keep up with the volume of lenses a factory puts out, and I don't think the K8/K9 are very good MTF benches.
Leica also makes their own MTF benches.
Their bottom line is that they're churning out 10 million lenses a year or whatever the volume and consumers didn't care before and mostly don't care now. There's no sense incurring the cost and losing time to test each lens on an MTF bench.
In the US, e.g. Jenoptik has equipment as advanced as the MTF bench, and some interferometric setups that are much more advanced.
Cell phones and backup cams are tested very well on machines that work very similar to our MTF bench. It is fairly ironic that a $10 camera module is tested so much better a $10,000 lens like a supertelephoto.
Impulse_Vigil ·
Wait why are phone camera modules better tested? Because it's cheaper/simpler?
Brandon Dube ·
They're smaller, which makes the mechanical aspects of testing easier. I don't really have more reason than that.
Phone sensors have very very small pixels, so the lenses are tested around 400lp/mm (8x higher than we do for DSLR/MILC lenses).
The cost really isn't so insurmountable. Perhaps it is because Apple and Samsung believe in higher quality. Perhaps it is because they got into this whole lenses thing many decades after the consumer lens manufactures, in an era where MTF testing is common and reasonable in terms of cost.
Impulse_Vigil ·
Very interesting... I wonder how susceptible to bumps all that precision is, considering how much more a phone is knocked around (than an ILC lens) on average... I imagine that depends as much on how the module is mounted as the module itself tho.
Brandon Dube ·
There's less mass when the optics are tiny, making them less susceptible to misalignment from handling.
Patrick Chase ·
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the un-named prime you used for the set of 9 maps was a supertele, maybe a 400/2.8.?
Brandon Dube ·
Nope, think closer to 100mm :)
Superteles don't look that smooth - there are vibrations that cause little ripples in the MTF as a measurement artifact.
Patrick Chase ·
Yeah, I realized it could be a 100 mm macro lens after I posted. I didn't know about the ripple issue when measuring superteles though.
Enrique Salvador Toso ·
Great article. It would be just amazing to apply the sagittal MTF to a very telecentric lens vs a ¨3d look¨ lens, so we could see the different patern.
Roger Cicala ·
Enrique, that’s a good idea, but I think we’d need to add the field curvatures to that too.
Roger Cicala ·
Enrique, that's a good idea, but I think we'd need to add the field curvatures to that too.
sala.nimi ·
The painfull truth. But still interesting.
What is the sharpest lens then? What is the sharpest you have measured?
Roger Cicala ·
I can’t really answer that question because almost all of our testing is done wide open since we’re looking for problems. We’d have to test them all at f/5.6 or f/8 to determine the sharpest. Of the wide-open lenses I recall, I think maybe the Zeiss 135mm APO f/2 Sonnar. But Brandon keeps better track of this kind of thing than I do, I’m sure he’ll be along and comment.
Munchma Quchi ·
The highest Imatest scores I’ve seen have been with the Nikon 300mm 2.8 @ f4, the Otus 85mm and the Apo Sonnar 135mm at f4.
Carleton Foxx ·
If you believe MTF charts, it’s probably something like the AF-S NIKKOR 800mm f/5.6E FL ED or the Canon equivalent. Telephotos are just inherently sharper, according to my very limited and primitive understanding. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/93c98b059a9352eecdb47932367353e1872e3b4f393395f7a0d60889edc2baa3.jpg
Munchma Quchi ·
My friends 600mm FL Nikon almost scored as high as my Otus 85mm . (almost)
Patrick Chase ·
The problem with that chart is that it’s obviously a geometric simulation that doesn’t include diffraction, and is physically impossible in the real world.
The theoretical upper limit for visible light (using 560 nm as a nominal) at 30 lp/mm and f/5.6 is about 88% MTF IIRC. Any chart that shows an f/5.6 lens performing better than that is bogus.
Carleton Foxx ·
Good point. But I was just reading an author who said that the effects of diffraction are not always as devastating as the numbers tell us. I have no clue whether it’s true or not. What are your thoughts? Is there a predictable sweet spot where the benefits of aberration correction exceeds the degradation from diffraction?
Patrick Chase ·
Diffraction is somewhat unique in that it causes a significant drop in MTF at relatively low frequencies, but still allows you to resolve very high frequencies. One simplistic way to think about it is that it impacts microcontrast more than it limits ultimate resolution. That’s an important distinction in digital workflows, because we can sharpen to correct modest attenuation at medium frequencies (for example the ~12% loss that I previously referenced), but we can’t recover information that has been destroyed.
Continuing with the example of 560 nm light at f/5.6, diffraction would reduce MTF by 50% at ~130 lp/mm. This means that even though there is a noticeable impact at 30 lp/mm, the image still contains useable spatial information even at much higher ones.
Patrick Chase ·
I attempted to reply to this earlier but it seems to have vanished…
Diffraction is perhaps a bit unique in that it significantly impacts mid frequencies, as with the aforementioned ~12% reduction in 30 lp/mm MTF, but still allows you to resolve fairly high frequencies. Again using an f/5.6 lens at 560 nm as an example, diffraction would reduce MTF by 50% at ~130 lp/mm and wouldn’t cause extinction (0 MTF) until 320 lp/mm.
One way you could think of it is that it degrades micro-contrast more than it impacts ultimate resolution. In digital workflows you can correct modest micro-contrast loss by sharpening, but you can’t recover lost spatial information, so in that sense diffraction is benign provided you don’t stop down too far (at f/32 and 560 nm the extinction frequency is 56 lp/mm, so at that point you’re losing a lot of spatial information).
That’s different from defocus, which has a more “compact” (short-tailed) PSF and therefore imposes a steeper rolloff in the frequency domain.
Brandon Dube ·
My heart says 100mm f/2 makro-planar because dammit I love that lens, color problems and all. But it is only really a really, really good lens and not the best one.
The science says that, if you’re saying “best MTF at full aperture” == sharpest, it’s one of the new 85~135mm-ish fast lenses, sigma 85A, Sony 85GM, Otus 85, etc.
The Otus 85 is certainly the best we’ve ever seen, on axis, at full aperture. Supertelephotos and all.
For the absolute sharpest, I would look for the fewest residual aberrations other than spherical aberration since stopping down removes that very quickly, and low variance because, well, I hope it doesn’t need explaining.
With that criteria, I would say Nikon 300/2.8 E / VR III, whatever the numbers and letters come out to. The newest one.
Below carleton posted the manufacture MTF for Nikon’s 800/5.6. This is really an exceptionally ease lens design, since the FoV is small, and the aperture is too. It is also the geometric MTF, rather than diffraction MTF, as the numbers are above the diffraction limit and pretty meaningless. I think only sigma computes and shows the diffraction MTF. The other manufactures would rather the (false) higher numbers of geometric MTF.
So, the short answer is the 100mm f/2 makro planar.
sala.nimi ·
The painfull truth. But still interesting.
What is the sharpest lens then? What is the sharpest you have measured?
Roger Cicala ·
I can't really answer that question because almost all of our testing is done wide open since we're looking for problems. We'd have to test them all at f/5.6 or f/8 to determine the sharpest. Of the wide-open lenses I recall, I think maybe the Zeiss 135mm APO f/2 Sonnar. But Brandon keeps better track of this kind of thing than I do, I'm sure he'll be along and comment.
Munchma Quchi ·
The highest Imatest scores I've seen have been with the Nikon 300mm 2.8 @ f4, the Otus 85mm and the Apo Sonnar 135mm at f4.
Carleton Foxx ·
If you believe MTF charts, it's probably something like the AF-S NIKKOR 800mm f/5.6E FL ED or the Canon equivalent. Telephotos are just inherently sharper, according to my very limited and primitive understanding. https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
Patrick Chase ·
The problem with that chart is that it's obviously a geometric simulation that doesn't include diffraction, and is physically impossible in the real world.
The theoretical upper limit for visible light (using 560 nm as a nominal) at 30 lp/mm and f/5.6 is about 88% MTF IIRC. Any chart that shows an f/5.6 lens performing better than that is bogus.
Carleton Foxx ·
Good point. But I was just reading an author who said that the effects of diffraction are not always as devastating as the numbers tell us. I have no clue whether it's true or not. What are your thoughts? Is there a predictable sweet spot where the benefits of aberration correction exceed the degradation from diffraction?
Patrick Chase ·
I attempted to reply to this earlier but it seems to have vanished...
Diffraction is perhaps a bit unique in that it significantly impacts mid frequencies, as with the aforementioned ~12% reduction in 30 lp/mm MTF, but still allows you to resolve fairly high frequencies. Again using an f/5.6 lens at 560 nm as an example, diffraction would reduce MTF by 50% at ~130 lp/mm and wouldn't cause extinction (0 MTF) until 320 lp/mm.
One way you could think of it is that it degrades micro-contrast more than it impacts ultimate resolution. In digital workflows you can correct modest micro-contrast loss by sharpening, but you can't recover lost spatial information, so in that sense diffraction is benign provided you don't stop down too far (at f/32 and 560 nm the extinction frequency is 56 lp/mm, so at that point you're losing a lot of spatial information).
That's different from defocus, which has a more "compact" (short-tailed) PSF and therefore imposes a steeper rolloff in the frequency domain.
Brandon Dube ·
My heart says 100mm f/2 makro-planar because dammit I love that lens, color problems and all. But it is only really a really, really good lens and not the best one.
The science says that, if you're saying "best MTF at full aperture" == sharpest, it's one of the new 85~135mm-ish fast lenses, sigma 85A, Sony 85GM, Otus 85, etc.
The Otus 85 is certainly the best we've ever seen, on axis, at full aperture. Supertelephotos and all.
For the absolute sharpest, I would look for the fewest residual aberrations other than spherical aberration since stopping down removes that very quickly, and low variance because, well, I hope it doesn't need explaining.
With that criteria, I would say Nikon 300/2.8 E / VR III, whatever the numbers and letters come out to. The newest one.
Below carleton posted the manufacture MTF for Nikon's 800/5.6. This is really an exceptionally ease lens design, since the FoV is small, and the aperture is too. It is also the geometric MTF, rather than diffraction MTF, as the numbers are above the diffraction limit and pretty meaningless. I think only sigma computes and shows the diffraction MTF. The other manufactures would rather the (false) higher numbers of geometric MTF.
So, the short answer is the 100mm f/2 makro planar.
bokesan ·
What about somewhat less cheap and flimsy zooms without that silly “AF” thing? You posted Imatest numbers for one of these a while ago – how does it look on the optical bench 🙂 https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/04/first-look-zeiss-cz-2-70-200mm-t2-9/
Roger Cicala ·
bokesan, I don’t have MTF maps handy on them, but I think it would be exactly like you’d predict. There’s less variation in a $20,000 cine zoom, but it’s not ‘none’ and they do have some differences at different focal lengths. That being said, a cinema user is less likely to notice simply because video is less resolution intensive than photo, even at 4k. (Granted 8k will be different.)
They’re much more likely to notice if the lens is focus breathing or not parfocal than they are to notice an area or focal length of lower resolution.
bokesan ·
What about somewhat less cheap and flimsy zooms without that silly "AF" thing? You posted Imatest numbers for one of these a while ago - how does it look on the optical bench :-) https://www.lensrentals.com...
I guess it should look a bit better, but still not nearly as good as the prime?
Roger Cicala ·
bokesan, I don't have MTF maps handy on them, but I think it would be exactly like you'd predict. There's less variation in a $20,000 cine zoom, but it's not 'none' and they do have some differences at different focal lengths. That being said, a cinema user is less likely to notice simply because video is less resolution intensive than photo, even at 4k. (Granted 8k will be different.)
They're much more likely to notice if the lens is focus breathing or not parfocal than they are to notice an area or focal length of lower resolution.
Bery ·
It explains the popularity of old M42 primes, because people are used to cheap zooms.
Is is to simple to say that a cheap prime is better than an expensive zoom.
Bery ·
It explains the popularity of old M42 primes, because people are used to cheap zooms.
Is is to simple to say that a cheap prime is better than an expensive zoom.
Thomas Geist ·
Roger, I wonder if you ever had a lens like a Rodenstock Digaron or the like on your bench. And how that would compare to the best of 35 mm primes?
Wade Tregaskis ·
You joke about ‘if you have to ask, you can’t afford it’… but I’m still curious. Both that you’re implying you do sell tested-best copies of lenses to a select few, and of course for what kind of a mark-up…
For the sake of my curiosity if nothing else, could you suggest what kind of a price a popular prime lens (maybe a 50 or an 85) would go for, if you were to sell ‘certified best by test’ copies of them?
Roger Cicala ·
Wade, it costs about $125 to do a full test on a single prime. So if you wanted me to screen 9 of them . . . . Zooms are more expensive since we have to test each one at 3 focal lengths.
But look at the above. With primes (except the one that was dropped and we already assumed was bad) it would make some sense. For around $850 I could certify 3 were ‘best copies’, 4 were ‘good copies’ and 1 was borderline. In all good conscious I have to knock a bit off the borderline one, so let’s mark it down $100 and add that to the expense. So the 3 good lenses I’d have to add $315 each to make it worth the testing. This is a $900 prime. I don’t think it’s worthwhile.
The zooms, well, hell, I wouldn’t even know where to begin 🙂
Confused in Montara ·
Well, there might be a business case here after all. Remember those “good” copies you say are still very good. So sell those, too. Have an “RC Gold Certified” for an extra $150 a lens. An “RC Silver Certified” at $75 extra a lens. And return the lemon to your vendor for a better copy. With your lenses here you would have $750 and a replacement lens. Then get faster/better/more efficient at doing the tests, in order to increase your margin. I can easily see people online bragging about their “RC Gold” and “RC Silver” lenses. Higher resale, too. Heck, rent the certified ones and people will buy them from you at a higher rate then now, I’d bet. I like it!
Roger Cicala ·
Well, I don’t know about reselling stuff, but we will be offering testing to the public soon. So you could send your lens in and get an MTF printout and comparison to average.
obican ·
See my comment just above 🙂
obican ·
If he merely breaks even, there is no point in doing that at all. In order for it to make sense as a businness, I’d expect at least a 3x return on that kind of investment in time and effort.
Confused in Montara ·
The numbers he was citing appeared to be the cost to the customer, in evaluating whether such cost was worth it to the customer. The conclusion was that it would cost the customer an extra $900, thus hard to see how that would be worth it. I have no idea what his costs are or the volume of work the he could do in any time period..
Dave New ·
Heh. How about the lens manufacturer stop shipping sh*t and passing it off as good? In the industry I’m in, we wouldn’t be able to palm off crap on our customers.
Wade Tregaskis ·
Huh… that’s not actually nearly as expensive as I expected. I think you might actually have a profitable potential business there…
As ‘Confused in Montara’ implies, your testing alone – and certification that a lens is merely not a bad copy – has value, even before you consider premiums for the best copies. I for one would pay $100 extra in a heartbeat, for an expensive prime, if that meant merely knowing I wasn’t going to get a dud. And for anyone like me, that intends to really rely on a few workhorse lenses over many years, a few hundred dollars extra is totally worth it. Heck, I’d even consider a premium of $1,000 or more once we start talking high-end telephotos and/or zooms, that already cost many thousands of dollars anyway.
Up to you and your colleagues of course whether you see an opportunity there, and of course whether you want to do that kind of thing anyway. But put me down, for one, on your list of prospective customers for it.
Tim Cooper ·
For what it’s worth, my totally luck-based cherry nifty fifty has been worth many times over $315. And it’s a $100 lens.
Wade Tregaskis ·
You joke about 'if you have to ask, you can't afford it'… but I'm still curious. Both that you're implying you do sell tested-best copies of lenses to a select few, and of course for what kind of a mark-up…
For the sake of my curiosity if nothing else, could you suggest what kind of a price a popular prime lens (maybe a 50 or an 85) would go for, if you were to sell 'certified best by test' copies of them?
Roger Cicala ·
Wade, it costs about $125 to do a full test on a single prime. So if you wanted me to screen 9 of them . . . . Zooms are more expensive since we have to test each one at 3 focal lengths.
But look at the above. With primes (except the one that was dropped and we already assumed was bad) it would make some sense. For around $850 I could certify 3 were 'best copies', 4 were 'good copies' and 1 was borderline. In all good conscious I have to knock a bit off the borderline one, so let's mark it down $100 and add that to the expense. So the 3 good lenses I'd have to add $315 each to make it worth the testing. This is a $900 prime. I don't think it's worthwhile.
The zooms, well, hell, I wouldn't even know where to begin :-)
Confused in Montara ·
Well, there might be a business case here after all. Remember those "good" copies you say are still very good. So sell those, too. Have an "RC Gold Certified" for an extra $150 a lens. An "RC Silver Certified" at $75 extra a lens. And return the lemon to your vendor for a better copy. With your lenses here you would have $750 and a replacement lens. Then get faster/better/more efficient at doing the tests, in order to increase your margin. I can easily see people online bragging about their "RC Gold" and "RC Silver" lenses. Higher resale, too. Heck, rent the certified ones and people will buy them from you at a higher rate then now, I'd bet. I like it!
Roger Cicala ·
Well, I don't know about reselling stuff, but we will be offering testing to the public soon. So you could send your lens in and get an MTF printout and comparison to average.
obican ·
See my comment just above :)
obican ·
If he merely breaks even, there is no point in doing that at all. In order for it to make sense as a businness, I'd expect at least a 3x return on that kind of investment in time and effort.
Dave New ·
Heh. How about the lens manufacturer stop shipping sh*t and passing it off as good? In the industry I'm in, we wouldn't be able to palm off crap on our customers.
Wade Tregaskis ·
Huh... that's not actually nearly as expensive as I expected. I think you might actually have a profitable potential business there...
As 'Confused in Montara' implies, your testing alone - and certification that a lens is merely not a bad copy - has value, even before you consider premiums for the best copies. I for one would pay $100 extra in a heartbeat, for an expensive prime, if that meant merely knowing I wasn't going to get a dud. And for anyone like me, that intends to really rely on a few workhorse lenses over many years, a few hundred dollars extra is totally worth it. Heck, I'd even consider a premium of $1,000 or more once we start talking high-end telephotos and/or zooms, that already cost many thousands of dollars anyway.
Up to you and your colleagues of course whether you see an opportunity there, and of course whether you want to do that kind of thing anyway. But put me down, for one, on your list of prospective customers for it.
Tim Cooper ·
For what it's worth, my totally luck-based cherry nifty fifty has been worth many times over $315. And it's a $100 lens.
Luke ·
This article was excellent, and more of this ‘science’ stuff is needed online. Thanks!
Luke ·
This article was excellent, and more of this 'science' stuff is needed online. Thanks!
Jonas Wagner ·
I think it’s pretty irrational of you not to care about those numbers. I mean, they aren’t imaginary after all.
Roger Cicala ·
HAHA! Well payed, sir. Well played!
Otto ·
It’s complex, they might be a bit imaginary after all…
Tim ·
That joke was golden, naturally. Now go eat some pie.
Paul Lackey ·
You meant, pi, right?
Tim ·
No, I was trying to be a little more subtle.
Paul Lackey ·
My apologies.. I figured it was too obvious, but I was just desperate to insert myself into the goings-on.. 8’P Carry on..
PauerKorde ·
My apologies.. I figured it was too obvious, but I was just desperate to insert myself into the goings-on.. 8'P Carry on..
Paul M ·
yummm, pi.
PauerKorde ·
You meant, pi, right?
Anton Aylward ·
‘i’ see what you mean.
Jonas Wagner ·
I think it's pretty irrational of you not to care about those numbers. I mean, they aren't imaginary after all.
Otto ·
It's complex, they might be a bit imaginary after all...
Anton Aylward ·
'i' see what you mean.
Bob Thane ·
Thanks for sharing, great and informative article! Is it possible to take say, zoom 2 and adjust/shim it to perform like zoom 6 at 200mm, or is the performance less to do with alignment and more about the shape and purity of the glass?
Roger Cicala ·
Bob, in theory it’s possible, in practice very difficult. Some of this could be from cam barrels, cams, helicoids being just a tiny bit off. As with most lenses it’s usually straightforward to make awful acceptable, but past that you start seeing tradeoffs and randomness.
Roger Cicala ·
Bob, in theory it's possible, in practice very difficult. Some of this could be from cam barrels, cams, helicoids being just a tiny bit off. As with most lenses it's usually straightforward to make awful acceptable, but past that you start seeing tradeoffs and randomness.
MPNavrozjee ·
Put more variables into a lens, and the lens varies more. Can they still
be very good? Absolutely. Can they be as good as the best primes? Nope.
On the other hand, the best primes don’t zoom worth a damn. Horses for
courses.
Thank you for pouring a huge bucket of commonsense over most of us gearheads out here on the internet.
And a million thanks for a fabulous exposition backed up by what must have been hard, hard work.
Brandon Dube ·
The hard work these days is mostly patience for the measurements, and carpal-tunnel inducing amounts of programming to automate the hell out of the testing procedure 🙂
And patience. That can be hard too. And cleaning up clipping because some manufacturers insist on putting baffles in their lens that improve image quality but make testing on an MTF bench harder. The nerve.
Jochen Römling ·
And of course making testing on an MTF bench easier is more important than improved image quality! :-p Fight them baffles!
MPNavrozjee ·
Put more variables into a lens, and the lens varies more. Can they still
be very good? Absolutely. Can they be as good as the best primes? Nope.
On the other hand, the best primes don’t zoom worth a damn. Horses for
courses.
Thank you for pouring a huge bucket of commonsense over most of us gearheads out here on the internet.
And a million thanks for a fabulous exposition of data backed up by what must have been hard, hard work.
Brandon Dube ·
The hard work these days is mostly patience for the measurements, and carpal-tunnel inducing amounts of programming to automate the hell out of the testing procedure :)
And patience. That can be hard too. And cleaning up clipping because some manufacturers insist on putting baffles in their lens that improve image quality but make testing on an MTF bench harder. The nerve.
Photographer100 ·
*ROLLS EYES….. you said — “Few people, though, think about that fact that zooms are far more complex than primes. Where a prime usually has 6 to 12 elements, zooms often have around 20”
1. i think about it all the time
2. you FORGET entirely to mention that many modern (trashy) prime lenses are over-designed with AS many elements (16+ ..) as a zoom lens.
Roger Cicala ·
Point taken! And it’s a good point.
Photographer100 ·
*Rolls eyes*..... you said --- "Few people, though, think about that fact that zooms are far more complex than primes. Where a prime usually has 6 to 12 elements, zooms often have around 20"
1. i think about it all the time
2. you FORGET entirely to mention that many modern (trashy) prime lenses are over-designed with AS many elements (16+ ..) as a zoom lens.
Roger Cicala ·
Point taken! And it's a good point.
Rafa? Stompor ·
Leaving aside the question of focus, do you also sees a difference in imaging objects or people through zooms? does not it seem to you, that a sample object, as seen through the prime, has a slightly different shape, more natural than that seen by the zoom? May it result from such a large amount of different distancees of each elements of the lens?
Photographer100 ·
you said—” Increased complexity causes increased variability.”
by DEFAULT you have (correctly) impugned scummy modern OVER-COMPLEX (nikkor 105mm f1.4 etc) prime lenses with 14+ elements
…..However a mere few weeks ago you wrote an article praising that “more glass than a zoom lens” Nikkor 105mm f1.4
A doesnt agree with B
HF ·
Complexity is not restricted to lens element count (which you cherry-picked as it fits your agenda). Is it that difficult to see that he means the complexity in designing a 70-200 zoom, for example, with moving elements or groups, VR, motors etc. requiring it to not only be optimised to one focal length but a whole zoom range?
Photographer100 ·
increased complexity IS increased complexity HF……..modern (scummy) PRIMES are AS COMPLEX AS most ZOOM lenses.
Im sorry you lack comprehension on this
HF ·
Read, before you write. I didn’t say that primes are/can not be complex. A zoom adds _further_ complexity, increasing the difficulty to fulfill tolerances etc. You only want to find something which plays into your angry photographer nonsense of lower “microcontrast” (whatever that is) in modern lenses, which is shown here at lensrentals to be not true at all.
Roger Cicala ·
Agree in principle. But only one of them is sliding around to focus, and the focusing element is not having to move through the larger range that zooming elements require of it.
It’s the trade off: more elements do increase complexity, but they also in theory reduce optical aberrations. But a prime has the advantage that even with more elements, almost all are in a fixed position.
Photographer100 ·
they also (high element count primes) DECREASE saturation, destroy microcontrast, and RENDER like a (*#(@(%) zoom lens.
When a prime lens has most ALL the negative traits of a zoom lens, the design is intellectually bankrupt.
Vangelis Matos Medina ·
Where i can read abou this? “DECREASE saturation, destroy microcontrast”
Photographer100 ·
if you dont know already that high element count zooms & primes destroy low-gain intra-tonal light (ie microcontrast),…….. (fill in the blank)
Vangelis Matos Medina ·
No, I don’t.
Photographer100 ·
you said---" Increased complexity causes increased variability."
by DEFAULT you have (correctly) impugned scummy modern OVER-COMPLEX (nikkor 105mm f1.4 etc) prime lenses with 14+ elements
.....However a mere few weeks ago you wrote an article praising that "more glass than a zoom lens" Nikkor 105mm f1.4
A doesnt agree with B
HF ·
Complexity is not restricted to lens element count (which you cherry-picked as it fits your agenda). Is it that difficult to see that he means the complexity in designing a 70-200 zoom, for example, with moving elements or groups, VR, motors etc. requiring it to not only be optimised to one focal length but a whole zoom range?
Photographer100 ·
increased complexity IS increased complexity HF........modern (scummy) PRIMES are AS COMPLEX AS most ZOOM lenses.
Im sorry you lack comprehension on this
HF ·
Read, before you write. I didn't say that primes are/can not be complex. A zoom adds _further_ complexity, increasing the difficulty to fulfill tolerances etc. You only want to find something which plays into your angry photographer nonsense of lower "microcontrast" (whatever that is) in modern lenses, which is shown here at lensrentals to be not true at all.
Roger Cicala ·
Agree in principle. But only one of them is sliding around to focus, and the focusing element is not having to move through the larger range that zooming elements require of it. Variation follows the root-sum-square so each element adds some variation. But the variation for a fixed element may be 0.01, while that for a moving element may be 0.1. That moving group may add more variation than 4 or 5 fixed elements.
It's the trade off: more elements do increase complexity, but they also in theory reduce optical aberrations. But a prime has the advantage that even with more elements, almost all are in a fixed position.
Photographer100 ·
they also (high element count primes) DECREASE saturation, destroy microcontrast, and RENDER like a (*#(@(%) zoom lens.
When a prime lens has most ALL the negative traits of a zoom lens, the design is intellectually bankrupt.
Vangelis Matos Medina ·
Where i can read abou this? "DECREASE saturation, destroy microcontrast"
Photographer100 ·
if you dont know already that high element count zooms & primes destroy low-gain intra-tonal light (ie microcontrast),........ (fill in the blank)
Vangelis Matos Medina ·
No, I don't.
Andreas Scholer ·
42 is the ultimate answer!
davev8 ·
close….but it did take 10,000 years to find out
davev8 ·
close....but it did take 10,000 years to find out
DrJon ·
No, it’s a classic Adams comment as it’s nearly but not quite the diagonal of 35mm film…
DrJon ·
No, it's a classic Adams comment as it's nearly but not quite the diagonal of 35mm film...
David Bateman ·
So now where do the Leica Tri-Elmar-M lenses fit in. Not primes, not zooms. Lets just give them an i rating due to cost.
Also in my field we say just because it is published in cell, science or nature doesn’t mean its wrong. The same maybe said for the three letter review site, one day.
Roger Cicala ·
I love the comment. In my ex-field we had the same thing about New England Journal of Medicine and Lancet. As to the Tri-Elmar, I have no first-hand experience, having never tested a batch. The educated guess would be somewhere in between, but then it’s Leica, they were hand-built, so I wouldn’t be totally shocked if they were prime-like.
David Bateman ·
So now where do the Leica Tri-Elmar-M lenses fit in. Not primes, not zooms. Lets just give them an i rating due to cost.
Also in my field we say just because it is published in cell, science or nature doesn't mean its wrong. The same maybe said for the three letter review site, one day.
Roger Cicala ·
I love the comment. In my ex-field we had the same thing about New England Journal of Medicine and Lancet. As to the Tri-Elmar, I have no first-hand experience, having never tested a batch. The educated guess would be somewhere in between, but then it's Leica, they were hand-built, so I wouldn't be totally shocked if they were prime-like.
Preedee Kanjanapongkul ·
Thank you for great article again, Roger. I always love reading scientific explanation like this.
Off topic, I’ve noticed that 3.1415926, 2.718281828 and 1.61803398 are the values of pi, e and golden ratio respectively. LOL
Preedee Kanjanapongkul ·
Thank you for great article again, Roger. I always love reading scientific explanation like this.
Off topic, I've noticed that 3.1415926, 2.718281828 and 1.61803398 are the values of pi, e and golden ratio respectively. LOL
BlueSkromanticies ·
ty captain obvious
there could be many reasons that cause variability, you are assuming you know what is causing the variability, don’t assume
No, I don’t generalize about lenses and don’t assume.
More wild statements. You know how many comparisons you would have to make to justify that statement?
thanks for telling me, was about to throw my zooms lenses in the trash
more assumptions, why do you assume you know what goes into zooms if you don’t work for a company making lenses?
more assumptions, please stop
Pixel-peeping killed me ·
“there could be many reasons that cause variability, you are assuming you know what is causing the variability”
He doesn’t assume that at all. He said that increased complexity causes increased variability, meaning that the more variables you have going in (i.e. more complexity), the more variability you will get in the end. Which is pretty much the same statement you made: there could be many reasons that cause variability.
Also, Cicala’s statement expresses a sufficient condition, not a necessary one. Complexity causes variability, but that doesn’t mean that it’s the only cause of variability.
“more assumptions, why do you assume you know what goes into zooms if you don’t work for a company making lenses”
You’re making assumptions yourself. As someone who tests and repairs lenses professionally, why do you assume that Roger Cicala does not know about the compromises involved in manufacture?
BlueSkromanticies ·
That is most definitely an assumption. This could be caused by a number of things, different price brackets, different lens yields, different tresholds, difference in factory designs, etc. There is no way to know just by looking at a lens.
Unless you work for a lens company and know what is the cause behind the variability, do not assume. Fools assume. Ask the lens company if you want to know what is behind the lens variability.
Pixel-peeping killed me ·
Yes, it could be caused by a number of things, but that is exactly what he meant by “increased complexity causes increased variability”. Different quality control, different lens yields, different tolerances and many more things, those are all variables that add to the complexity. All he’s saying is that the more variables you have in producing something, the more variability you will have in the result. That is not an assumption, it’s basically a mathematical truth.
Nobody has made an assumption as to the exact causes behind the variability. He said that complexity (i.e. the multitude of variables involved in design and manufacture) causes variability, which it certainly does. And as I said, it’s a sufficient condition, not a necessary one.
BlueSkromanticies ·
But that’s an assumption. The assumption is that the variability is being caused by a preceived lens complexity, which he then further uses to substantiate his argument that “zooms can’t be as good as primes” .
Let’s take a concrete example. The capacitor plague.
The capacitors made in Taiwan were not more complex than the ones made in Japan. But the factories in Taiwan did not have the same know-how to make the same quality capacitors as those made by the Japanese factories. Not only did that happen across brands, it happened within brands.
Are you telling me that isn’t possible with these lenses. Are you telling me this variability between lenses can’t possibly be caused due to different factories being used during production, are you certain it’s due to lens complexity? Of course not. It is a wild assumption when there are most likely many factors involved.
Pixel-peeping killed me ·
Again, you don’t seem to understand the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions. He’s not saying that lens complexity is the only possible cause of variability, just that it is one cause of variability. It’s possible that many other variables not directly connected to lens complexity, may also influence the variability of the end result. But Roger doesn’t rule that out, you just assume that he does.
BlueSkromanticies ·
He says (in regards to zooms):
Without knowing what is behind the variability. He simply attributes it to complexity. He does not take anything else into account.
He does not take factory design, yields, market segment, cost of failed yields, treshold tolerances, or anything else into account. Without asking the lens maker, he does not know, he can not know.
If he wants to know what causes the variability, he should ask the company making his lens.
BlueSkromanticies ·
Also, may I remind that even among cameras, simply having a different offset market has caused differences in quality.
The 70D from Germany are well known to have AF issues, while 70D shipped to other nations had relatively less. When I pressed Canon on this, they told me different markets get different shipments and this is often why some issues show up in one market and not in the other. It had nothing to do with differences in design complexity, they are the same cameras.
Something as simple as a different offset market can cause large variances in quality.
Michael Clark ·
What part of the following statement is so hard to understand? He *does* talk to many of the lensmakers seeing as to how they are some of his testing service’s customers.
“But you do realize that we do testing for several of the lens companies, consult for others, and in a few cases have been used to determine causes of unacceptable variability? We don’t just look at them and test them, we take them apart, adjust them, and put them back together.”
Roger Cicala ·
You point is generally valid, particularly with the capacitor example which is excellent. But you do realize that we do testing for several of the lens companies, consult for others, and in a few cases have been used to determine causes of unacceptable variability?
The well-documented reality is unlike most electronic devices, optical variation during manufacturing follows a root-sum square: you square the variation of each element, add those squares together, then take the square root of the sum. In practice that means that one large error can cause a lot of variation – that’s the kind of problem we can detect and fix. But every element, came, helicoid, etc. has an inevitable tiny manufacturing error, too small too fix. If you have 163 of those, the root sum square is going to be a lot higher than if you have 52.
You are correct, you named several things that do cause variability and summarized nicely why an inexpensive lens may have more variation than an expensive one. But even the most expensive has to follow the inevitable law of complexity.
Geary, J: Introduction to Optical Testing. SPIE Press, 1993.
Ishikkie, M, et al: Lens Design: Global Optimization of Both Performance and Tolerance Sensitivity. SPIE International Optical Design Conference, 2006.
Malarca, D: Optical Shop Testing. Wiley and Sons, 2007.
Schwertz, K and Burge, J: Field Guide to Optomechanical Design and Analysis. SPIE Press, 2012.
Schwertz, K: Useful Estimations and Rules of Thumb for Optomechanics. University of Georgia, 2010
Smith, Warren J. Modern Optical Engineering: the Design of Optical Systems. McGraw Hill, 2000.
Youngworth, R: The Continual Evolution of Tolerance Assignment in Optics. SPIE, 2009.
Hypnoswan ·
Ah the irony of it- stop-stop- oh my aching sides
:p
Brandon Dube ·
> There could be many reasons that cause variability, you are assuming you know what is causing the variability, don’t assume. I could be price related, market related, factory related, technology related, unless you work for an actual company making lenses, do not assume.
The variance is basically an equation that contains a term for each free parameter in the optical system. Each element has many parameters – first surface radius, second surface radius, center thickness, wedge, index of refraction, abbe number, index of refraction inhomogeneity, three decenters (X, Y, Z), three tilts (alpha, beta, gamma), as well as decenter and tilt along any intended motion of the part (e.g. internal focus, zoom). This is just the optical components.
Each term you add (e.g. zoom motion) increases the net variance unless that term is zero. Zoom motions are among the most complex aspects of optomechanics for a “regular” lens – they will, with near absolute certainty, not be zero.
I don’t like ad-hominem arguments, but consider that Roger knows many lens designers (myself included, as well as Brian Caldwell, designer of e.g. the Coastal Optics 60mm f/4 hyperspectral lens, as well as Panavision’s 300x optical zoom), runs a very large lens rental house and oversees more repairs than some lens manufactures’ service centers, and owns a lens-making company (C4 precision optics).
There comes a certain time when adding references, studies, comparisons and what-have-you to each offhand comment causes more noise around the thrust of the point than is worth. The lensrentals blog is not an academic journal, if it was you would see little [1] and [2,3] after these comments citing something related to them.
Shield Block ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ᵗᵉᵃᵖᵒᵗ ·
ty captain obvious
There could be many reasons that cause variability, you are assuming you know what is causing the variability, don't assume. I could be price related, market related, factory related, technology related, unless you work for an actual company making lenses, do not assume.
If you want to know what is causing variability, I would advise you to ask an actual company making lenses, they will be more than happy to explain what causes variability.
I have a hunch it's a bit more complex than the difference between a zoom and prime.
No, I don't generalize about lenses and don't assume.
More wild statements. You know how many comparisons you would have to make to justify that statement?
thanks for telling me, was about to throw my zoom lenses in the trash
more assumptions, why do you assume you know what goes into zooms if you don't work for a company making lenses?
more assumptions, please stop
Pixel-peeping killed me ·
"there could be many reasons that cause variability, you are assuming you know what is causing the variability"
He doesn't assume that at all. He said that increased complexity causes increased variability, meaning that the more variables you have going in (i.e. more complexity), the more variability you will get in the end. Which is pretty much the same statement you made: there could be many reasons that cause variability.
Also, Cicala's statement expresses a sufficient condition, not a necessary one. Complexity causes variability, but that doesn't mean that it's the only cause of variability.
"more assumptions, why do you assume you know what goes into zooms if you don't work for a company making lenses"
You're making assumptions yourself. As someone who tests and repairs lenses professionally, why do you assume that Roger Cicala does not know about the compromises involved in manufacture?
Shield Block ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ᵗᵉᵃᵖᵒᵗ ·
That is most definitely an assumption. Variability could be caused by a number of things, different price brackets, difference marketing, different lens yields, different tresholds, difference in factory designs, etc. There is no way to know just by looking at a lens.
Unless you work for a lens company and know what is the cause behind the variability, do not assume. Fools assume. Ask the lens company if you want to know what is behind the lens variability.
Pixel-peeping killed me ·
Yes, it could be caused by a number of things, but that is exactly what he meant by "increased complexity causes increased variability". Different quality control, different lens yields, different tolerances and many more things, those are all variables that add to the complexity. All he's saying is that the more variables you have in producing something, the more variability you will have in the result. That is not an assumption, it's basically a mathematical truth.
Nobody has made an assumption as to the exact causes behind the variability. He said that complexity (i.e. the multitude of variables involved in design and manufacture) causes variability, which it certainly does. And as I said, it's a sufficient condition, not a necessary one.
Shield Block ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ᵗᵉᵃᵖᵒᵗ ·
But that's an assumption. The assumption is that the variability is being caused by a preceived lens complexity, which he then further uses to substantiate his argument that "zooms can't be as good as primes" .
Let's take a concrete example. The capacitor plague.
The capacitors made in Taiwan were not more complex than the ones made in Japan. But the factories in Taiwan did not have the same know-how to make the same quality capacitors as those made by the Japanese factories. Not only did that happen across brands, it happened within brands.
Are you telling me that isn't possible with these lenses. Are you telling me this variability between lenses can't possibly be caused due to different factories being used during production, are you certain it's due to lens complexity? Of course not. It is a wild assumption when there are most likely many factors involved.
Pixel-peeping killed me ·
Again, you don't seem to understand the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions. He's not saying that lens complexity is the only possible cause of variability, just that it is one cause of variability. It's possible that many other variables not directly connected to lens complexity, may also influence the variability of the end result. But Roger doesn't rule that out, you just assume that he does.
Shield Block ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ᵗᵉᵃᵖᵒᵗ ·
He says (in regards to zooms):
Without knowing what is behind the variability. He simply attributes it to complexity. He does not take anything else into account.
He does not take factory design, yields, market segment, cost of failed yields, treshold tolerances, or anything else into account. Without asking the lens maker, he does not know, he can not know.
If he wants to know what causes the variability, he should ask the company making his lens.
Shield Block ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ᵗᵉᵃᵖᵒᵗ ·
Also, may I remind that even among cameras, simply having a different offset market has caused differences in quality.
The 70D from Germany are well known to have AF issues, while 70D shipped to other nations had relatively less. When I pressed Canon on this, they told me different markets get different shipments and this is often why some issues show up in one market and not in the other. It had nothing to do with differences in design complexity, they are the same cameras.
Something as simple as a different offset market can cause large variances in quality.
Michael Clark ·
What part of the following statement is so hard to understand? He *does* talk to many of the lensmakers seeing as to how they are some of his testing service's customers.
"But you do realize that we do testing for several of the lens companies, consult for others, and in a few cases have been used to determine causes of unacceptable variability? We don't just look at them and test them, we take them apart, adjust them, and put them back together."
Roger Cicala ·
You point is generally valid, particularly with the capacitor example which is excellent. But you do realize that we do testing for several of the lens companies, consult for others, and in a few cases have been used to determine causes of unacceptable variability? We don't just look at them and test them, we take them apart, adjust them, and put them back together. We don't assume.
The well-documented reality is unlike most electronic devices, optical variation during manufacturing follows a root-sum square: you square the variation of each element, add those squares together, then take the square root of the sum. In practice that means that one large error can cause a lot of variation - that's the kind of problem we can detect and fix. But every element, came, helicoid, etc. has an inevitable tiny manufacturing error, too small too fix. If you have 163 of those, the root sum square is going to be a lot higher than if you have 52.
You are correct, you named several things that do cause variability and summarized nicely why an inexpensive lens may have more variation than an expensive one. But even the most expensive has to follow the inevitable law of complexity.
Geary, J: Introduction to Optical Testing. SPIE Press, 1993.
Ishikkie, M, et al: Lens Design: Global Optimization of Both Performance and Tolerance Sensitivity. SPIE International Optical Design Conference, 2006.
Malarca, D: Optical Shop Testing. Wiley and Sons, 2007.
Schwertz, K and Burge, J: Field Guide to Optomechanical Design and Analysis. SPIE Press, 2012.
Schwertz, K: Useful Estimations and Rules of Thumb for Optomechanics. University of Georgia, 2010
Smith, Warren J. Modern Optical Engineering: the Design of Optical Systems. McGraw Hill, 2000.
Youngworth, R: The Continual Evolution of Tolerance Assignment in Optics. SPIE, 2009.
Hypnoswan ·
Ah the irony of it- stop-stop- oh my aching sides
:p
Brandon Dube ·
> There could be many reasons that cause variability, you are assuming you know what is causing the variability, don't assume. I could be price related, market related, factory related, technology related, unless you work for an actual company making lenses, do not assume.
The variance is basically an equation that contains a term for each free parameter in the optical system. Each element has many parameters - first surface radius, second surface radius, center thickness, wedge, index of refraction, abbe number, index of refraction inhomogeneity, three decenters (X, Y, Z), three tilts (alpha, beta, gamma), as well as decenter and tilt along any intended motion of the part (e.g. internal focus, zoom). This is just the optical components.
Each term you add (e.g. zoom motion) increases the net variance unless that term is zero. Zoom motions are among the most complex aspects of optomechanics for a "regular" lens - they will, with near absolute certainty, not be zero.
I don't like ad-hominem arguments, but consider that Roger knows many lens designers (myself included, as well as Brian Caldwell, designer of e.g. the Coastal Optics 60mm f/4 hyperspectral lens, as well as Panavision's 300x optical zoom), runs a very large lens rental house and oversees more repairs than some lens manufactures' service centers, and owns a lens-making company (C4 precision optics).
There comes a certain time when adding references, studies, comparisons and what-have-you to each offhand comment causes more noise around the thrust of the point than is worth. The lensrentals blog is not an academic journal, if it was you would see little [1] and [2,3] after these comments citing something related to them.
Klorenzo ·
Hi Roger, just a little curiosity. How do lens performance and aperture relate in terms of sample variation? I mean: if a sample is very good at 1.4 is going to be proportionally very good at all the apertures, and the opposite too, or we could have a lens that is exceptional at 2.8 but weak at 8 and all the other variations?
Of course a lens performance would change with aperture, what I’m thinking about is sample variation, in practice if the max-aperture to min-aperture curve has the same “shape” for all (with just a different height) or if there are a few surprises there too.
Thanks, bye
Lorenzo
Roger Cicala ·
Lorenzo, we usually see the sample variation reduces as you stop down, although not always. So if I test a batch at f/1.4 and they’re quite different, at f/5.6 most of them would look nearly identical. But in a reasonably large batch (15 or 50 depending on what type of lens) there would be one or two that didn’t sharpen as much and actually would stand out more since the others were all getting more similar. Those were almost always bad copies wide open, though.
Klorenzo ·
Thanks.
Klorenzo ·
Hi Roger, just a little curiosity. How do lens performance and aperture relate in terms of sample variation? I mean: if a sample is very good at 1.4 is going to be proportionally very good at all the apertures, and the opposite too, or we could have a lens that is exceptional at 2.8 but weak at 8 and all the other variations?
Of course a lens performance would change with aperture, what I'm thinking about is sample variation, in practice if the max-aperture to min-aperture curve has the same "shape" for all (with just a different height) or if there are a few surprises there too.
Thanks, bye
Lorenzo
Roger Cicala ·
Lorenzo, we usually see the sample variation reduces as you stop down, although not always. So if I test a batch at f/1.4 and they're quite different, at f/5.6 most of them would look nearly identical. But in a reasonably large batch (15 or 50 depending on what type of lens) there would be one or two that didn't sharpen as much and actually would stand out more since the others were all getting more similar. Those were almost always bad copies wide open, though.
Michael Ogle ·
I have a question about lenses that may be a little off. I have a 99II which has mfa for the center and the 4 corners. Like eyeglasses, can a lens be brought back to excellent through adjustment by camera?
Roger Cicala ·
Michael, to some degree it can, particularly if there’s a tilt and you can adjust each AF point individually. Further electronic adjustments (and more robust ones) can be done in the lens firmware at the factory or service center where they have programming capabilities. But if a lens is decentered and the resolution is low for that reason it can’t be done electronically, an optomechanical adjustment is required.
Roger Cicala ·
Michael, to some degree it can, particularly if there's a tilt and you can adjust each AF point individually. Further electronic adjustments (and more robust ones) can be done in the lens firmware at the factory or service center where they have programming capabilities. But if a lens is decentered and the resolution is low for that reason it can't be done electronically, an optomechanical adjustment is required.
David Bateman ·
Roger,
When you test lenses do you track the data by serial number?
So you know x lens has been rented and tested z times and needed fixing y times. And does this vary within a lens family? Just curious and could help in the resale of lenses as you would then have the data that one lens is better than another. Also you would know if one specific lens or all the lenses in the family need repair.
Roger Cicala ·
We do (actually our in-house bar code number, but that’s linked to SN), and each copy has notes in the database that provide all that information. And we keep broad brush statistics about each type of lens – that this one tends to have this problem or more repairs, etc. At the sales end they will list major things, like ‘had AF motor replaced two months ago’ or ‘is slightly soft along the left side at 70mm’, but not all the details.
David Bateman ·
Roger,
When you test lenses do you track the data by serial number?
So you know x lens has been rented and tested z times and needed fixing y times. And does this vary within a lens family? Just curious and could help in the resale of lenses as you would then have the data that one lens is better than another. Also you would know if one specific lens or all the lenses in the family need repair.
Roger Cicala ·
We do (actually our in-house bar code number, but that's linked to SN), and each copy has notes in the database that provide all that information. And we keep broad brush statistics about each type of lens - that this one tends to have this problem or more repairs, etc. At the sales end they will list major things, like 'had AF motor replaced two months ago' or 'is slightly soft along the left side at 70mm', but not all the details.
Chiumeister ·
what is the current sharpest 50mm? thanks
Zach Sutton Photography ·
Likely the Zeiss Otus, a Leica or the Sigma 50 Art. Here is a comparison we did a few months back —
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/10/the-ultimate-50mm-lens-comparison/
Chiumeister ·
I suspect it is the Leica 50mm APO but the Leica sensor is the limiting factor for this lens. Did you guys test it on a Leica or on another camera using adaptors? Can the lens be fitted on a Sony 42mp mirrorless camera without distortions? Thanks.
chrisgull ·
Why the Leica?
Chiumeister ·
what is the current sharpest 50mm? thanks
Zach Sutton Photography ·
Likely the Zeiss Otus, a Leica or the Sigma 50 Art. Here is a comparison we did a few months back --
https://www.lensrentals.com...
davev8 ·
life the universe and everything
medgeek ·
If you’re leaving pi at 7 digits after the decimal point, the last digit should be 7 rather than 6, as the next two are 53.
e is ok.
Leaving the golden ratio at 8 digits to the right, the last digit should be 9, as the next one is 8.
Roger Cicala ·
See! My point about not trusting the numbers is proven! 🙂
You are, of course, absolutely correct and I stand, well, less correct than I should have been.
medgeek ·
If you're leaving pi at 7 digits after the decimal point, the last digit should be 7 rather than 6, as the next two are 53.
e is ok.
Leaving the golden ratio at 8 digits to the right, the last digit should be 9, as the next one is 8.
Roger Cicala ·
See! My point about not trusting the numbers is proven! :-)
You are, of course, absolutely correct and I stand, well, less correct than I should have been.
Andrew Roman ·
You seem to suggest that prime lenses with maximum aperture of 2.8 are generally sharper or better than lenses with maximum apertures of 1.4. Can you explain why? As well, does this also hold for zooms with maximum apertures of 4 versus 2.8?
Timothy Renzi ·
I think he’s saying that wide open, the 2.8 lenses will be sharper than the 1.4 lenses. The 1.4 lenses would be as sharp or sharper when stopped down to 2.8, but I don’t think they can test lenses on their bench that way because of electronic aperture controls. This is all supposition and may be totally wrong.
Brandon Dube ·
That’s basically right. Only thing to add is that we can test at any aperture, but full aperture is best for finding variance, which is what we’re really doing this to find, so we measure there first and foremost.
Roger Cicala ·
Correct!
Aardvark ·
You seem to suggest that prime lenses with maximum aperture of 2.8 are generally sharper or better than lenses with maximum apertures of 1.4. Can you explain why? As well, does this also hold for zooms with maximum apertures of 4 versus 2.8?
Timothy Renzi ·
I think he's saying that wide open, the 2.8 lenses will be sharper than the 1.4 lenses. The 1.4 lenses would be as sharp or sharper when stopped down to 2.8, but I don't think they can test lenses on their bench that way because of electronic aperture controls. This is all supposition and may be totally wrong.
Brandon Dube ·
That's basically right. Only thing to add is that we can test at any aperture, but full aperture is best for finding variance, which is what we're really doing this to find, so we measure there first and foremost.
Roger Cicala ·
Correct!
Claudia Muster ·
Very interesting article, as always.
Some time ago, Matt Granger has published a video where he talked to the Zeiss empoyee Hubert Nasse, a PhD in physics and MTF measuring guy at Zeiss’ (so Roger might even have known him). In the interview, Nasse basically says that a zoom can *theoretically* be as good as a prime. *Some* zooms are actually better than *some* primes because there is much more effort spent to optically optimize them, whereas primes are often optimized for compact size at the cost of optical compromizes. He then mentioned the Otus as a counter-exaple where Zeiss didn’t compromize on size. And he also mentioned that the higher complexity yields a higher chance of mis-alingment.
For those who are interested, here’s the link to the interview. The relevant passage is from minute 6 to 8.
http://www.mattgranger.com/gear-talk/item/668-lens-design-101-interview-with-a-zeiss-master
Roger Cicala ·
Thank you Claudia! I had not seen that before. I did have the pleasure of talking with Dr. Nasse a few times before he passed away. He responded to something I said once, with “that’s a good idea, it makes sense” and I felt like I’d just won the Nobel prize.
Nicolas Bousquet ·
Wouldn’t the more complex and corrected big prime more prone to variation due to the increased complexity toward a simpler one?
Marc Synwoldt ·
Excellent post. Fun to read, and highly educational, as usual. Also like the way you refer to the science vs. art perspectives in your intro.
Claudia Muster ·
Very interesting article, as always.
Some time ago, Matt Granger has published a video where he talked to the Zeiss empoyee Hubert Nasse, a PhD in physics and MTF measuring guy at Zeiss' (so Roger might even have known him). In the interview, Nasse basically says that a zoom can *theoretically* be as good as a prime. *Some* zooms are actually better than *some* primes because there is much more effort spent to optically optimize them, whereas primes are often optimized for compact size at the cost of optical compromizes. He then mentioned the Otus as a counter-exaple where Zeiss didn't compromize on size. And he also mentioned that the higher complexity yields a higher chance of mis-alingment.
For those who are interested, here's the link to the interview. The relevant passage is from minute 6 to 8.
http://www.mattgranger.com/...
Roger Cicala ·
Thank you Claudia! I had not seen that before. I did have the pleasure of talking with Dr. Nasse a few times before he passed away. He responded to something I said once, with "that's a good idea, it makes sense" and I felt like I'd just won the Nobel prize.
Nicolas Bousquet ·
Wouldn't the more complex and corrected big prime more prone to variation due to the increased complexity toward a simpler one?
Marc Synwoldt ·
Excellent post. Fun to read, and highly educational, as usual. Also like the way you refer to the science vs. art perspectives in your intro.
Photographer100 ·
ill make your article SHORT & SWEET for you………. “SIMPLICITY IS DIVINITY”
…..LOW element count primes render like nothing else can (nikkor 105mm f2 DC, Voigtlander 58mm f1.4…etc).
Ryan Stone ·
Ok Ken Wheeler
Photographer100 ·
ill make your article SHORT & SWEET for you.......... "SIMPLICITY IS DIVINITY"
.....LOW element count primes render like nothing else can (nikkor 105mm f2 DC, Voigtlander 58mm f1.4...etc).
Ryan Stone ·
Ok Ken Wheeler
Terence Morrissey ·
After we purchase a new lens how should we test it to determine if its acceptable?
DrJon ·
He wrote and article on that (although I wouldn’t go that far personally, or even close):
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2010/11/how-to-test-a-lens/
My view – go out and take a bunch of photos, if you see something you don’t like then investigate further, if not be happy…
Roger Cicala ·
I actually sort of do DrJon’s method myself. I do some quick tests to make sure the lens isn’t way off and then go take a bunch of pictures. BUT, some people have a few days to decide if they want to keep a lens or return it, and in that case I’d do the kind of testing in the article he referred to.
DrJon ·
He wrote and article on that (although I wouldn't go that far personally, or even close):
https://www.lensrentals.com...
My view - go out and take a bunch of photos, if you see something you don't like then investigate further, if not be happy...
Roger Cicala ·
I actually sort of do DrJon's method myself. I do some quick tests to make sure the lens isn't way off and then go take a bunch of pictures. BUT, some people have a few days to decide if they want to keep a lens or return it, and in that case I'd do the kind of testing in the article he referred to.
Otto ·
Roger, after reading all the comments I have to say – well done sir. It’s relatively easy to be a good engineer, but you seem to be a genuinely good person and respond with dignity even to questionable comments. Now, that’s a much tougher thing to accomplish and you have my respect for that (FWIW).
Cheers and best of luck.
Roger Cicala ·
Thank you, Otto. I do have to step away once in a while, before I respond 🙂
Michael Clark ·
Are you ever tempted to shout, “You can’t handle the truth!”
Otto ·
Roger, after reading all the comments I have to say - well done sir. It's relatively easy to be a good engineer, but you seem to be a genuinely good person and respond with dignity even to questionable comments. Now, that's a much tougher thing to accomplish and you have my respect for that (FWIW).
Cheers and best of luck.
Roger Cicala ·
Thank you, Otto. I do have to step away once in a while, before I respond :-)
Michael Clark ·
Are you ever tempted to shout, "You can't handle the truth!"
Oye ·
Hmm okay but isn’t it also generally true that zooms tend to be optimized for certain focal lengths? With a 70-200 it may not be that much of a deal since it’s all within a fairly narrow range.
But take something like a 16-80 and generally most owners will agree that the lens is better at certain focal lengths than on others, because the lens was designed that way. How big the difference is will depend on the copy of the lens, but it’s unlikely you’ll find one that excells at focal lengths that were deliberately sacrificed during the design process. Ain’t that true?
Well if so, then what is wrong with saying that (e.g.) I wish [my copy of] 16-80 were as good as [my copy of] 85 prime? I think that’s what people generally mean when they compare zooms and primes.
Brandon Dube ·
Zoom lens design is fundamentally different to prime lens design in terms of workflow. By the time the designer is actually putting lenses in, they’re looking at the two extremes of the focal length range. Once they can start getting rays through the lens they begin to look at aberrations, and the FoV and aperture begin walking from very small values like f/50 1 deg FoV to their real specifications.
Once the design functions, they will move to the final analysis and optimization phase, where a few years ago they would look at 3 focal lengths. Now you look at at least 5, often 9 or more depending on the zoom range.
I think the goal of most designers is an even performance, both across the field and across the zoom range. Any lens that goes from a retrofocus configuration (e.g. 16mm of 16-80) to a telephoto one (e.g. 80mm of 16-80) is very difficult. They are most likely going to do better at the wide end because the telephoto end is sort of baked into the wide end, but not vice versa.
Oye ·
Hmm okay but isn't it also generally true that zooms tend to be optimized for certain focal lengths? With a 70-200 it may not be that much of a deal since it's all within a fairly narrow range.
But take something like a 16-80 and generally most owners will agree that the lens is better at certain focal lengths than on others, because the lens was designed that way. How big the difference is will depend on the copy of the lens, but it's unlikely you'll find one that excells at focal lengths that were deliberately sacrificed during the design process. Ain't that true?
Well if so, then what is wrong with saying that (e.g.) I wish [my copy of] 16-80 were as good as [my copy of] 85 prime? I think that's what people generally mean when they compare zooms and primes.
Brandon Dube ·
Zoom lens design is fundamentally different to prime lens design in terms of workflow. By the time the designer is actually putting lenses in, they're looking at the two extremes of the focal length range. Once they can start getting rays through the lens they begin to look at aberrations, and the FoV and aperture begin walking from very small values like f/50 1 deg FoV to their real specifications.
Once the design functions, they will move to the final analysis and optimization phase, where a few years ago they would look at 3 focal lengths. Now you look at at least 5, often 9 or more depending on the zoom range.
I think the goal of most designers is an even performance, both across the field and across the zoom range. Any lens that goes from a retrofocus configuration (e.g. 16mm of 16-80) to a telephoto one (e.g. 80mm of 16-80) is very difficult. They are most likely going to do better at the wide end because the telephoto end is sort of baked into the wide end, but not vice versa.
john boothe ·
Sorry if you have said this in the article and I missed it, but are these tests all done at the widest aperture of the lens, or another aperture, or some kind of average across a number of apertures? I’m guessing they’re all at widest aperture to show worst-case scenario – is that correct?
My experience of zoom lenses is just as you show – wide variability across the frame and a lot of differences between different focal lengths. I certainly find that these differences matter in real-world photographs.
Second question – does the testing technique you use negate any difference in actual focus distance across the frame due to decentering or focal plane curvature? I mean, clearly most lenses do not have a perfectly flat focal plane which is perfectly parallel to the sensor, which would cause differences in sharpness in a test chart in any single exposure, but which would not be a true reflection of the maximum sharpness possible at that point if focus was shifted. I’m guessing that your testing technique must account for this and show the maximum sharpness possible at all points across the frame – is this correct? If so, then even the lenses which show excellent sharpness across the frame could show problems in real-world photographs due to curved or skewed focal planes, which wouldn’t be apparent from these particular tests?
Thank you for this and other articles, which go a long way to demistifying the minefield of lens performance.
Brandon Dube ·
(1) – at full aperture. We do this at closed apertures too, but only on a few lenses as opposed to 5, 10, 20, etc. We test at full aperture to determine variance and quality standards (requires lots of lenses), and at small apertures (requires lots of time) on the side, sort of as a hobby. If a paying metrology customer wants data at f/8, we give them data at f/8. If the free blog wants data at f/8 and there are 13000 other things to do, well, don’t hold your breath.
(2) – at best focus on axis. There are a lot of useful ways to look at focus with any kind of image quality metric.
Best focus on axis is simple and repeatable.
There is also best composite focus, which is a lot like how you would focus in a landscape shot – find the focus setting that gives the best average image quality across the frame. That one takes an extra 10-15 min per test to find and time is precious, so we don’t do that.
There is best focus at all fields, where you do through focus at each field point and pull out the best focus. This one really has three sub cases, since best tangential, best sagittal, and best medial focus are probably all in different places. This one takes an extraordinary amount of time (10x longer than the standard 4 rotation test) and gives you performance numbers you can never obtain in reality, since the lens has to be focused in one place.
Lastly, there is “variable focus” where you have a slider, buttons, whatever, to look at the performance across the field, through focus with discrete steps. This requires the same dataset as best focus at all fields (and TIME), but gives you something that is physically realizable. It even includes best composite focus.
We are mostly interested in variance (which this post is about). If we took out two key aberrations (field curvature and astigmatism) by doing best focus at all fields, a lot of the variance would appear to go away when it wouldn’t really in a photograph.
IMO best composite focus is the most useful if you can only have one, but doubling the test time for somewhat better information isn’t a tradeoff we’ve made.
john boothe ·
Thank you both for your incredibly thorough replies. In many cases when taking photographs, I do a kind of focus stack in order to compensate for field curvature/skew, and stitch together the sharpest sections. Some lenses appear to have a ‘soft side’ or corner, but they actually sharpen up if you focus differently, so it’s more a case of just a skewed focal plane. Others never get sharp in certain areas. Great to get some insight from you on the issue of field curvature/flatness – it’s something that seems to get glossed over and not recognised in most lens reviews, even though it’s clearly evident in published test shots.
Roger Cicala ·
John,
Unless we say otherwise it’s widest aperture. Our real-life goal is to identify problem lenses and that’s most apparent at widest aperture.
Field of focus curvature is important and we plan to start presenting it more. For example the MTF curve may look bad in the corners because the field is curved too much. It has practical purpose because if you were using an off-center focus point, then the image would be better than the MTF curve alone suggests.
john boothe ·
Sorry if you have said this in the article and I missed it, but are these tests all done at the widest aperture of the lens, or another aperture, or some kind of average across a number of apertures? I'm guessing they're all at widest aperture to show worst-case scenario - is that correct?
My experience of zoom lenses is just as you show - wide variability across the frame and a lot of differences between different focal lengths. I certainly find that these differences matter in real-world photographs.
Second question - does the testing technique you use negate any difference in actual focus distance across the frame due to decentering or focal plane curvature? I mean, clearly most lenses do not have a perfectly flat focal plane which is perfectly parallel to the sensor, which would cause differences in sharpness in a test chart in any single exposure, but which would not be a true reflection of the maximum sharpness possible at that point if focus was shifted. I'm guessing that your testing technique must account for this and show the maximum sharpness possible at all points across the frame - is this correct? If so, then even the lenses which show excellent sharpness across the frame could show problems in real-world photographs due to curved or skewed focal planes, which wouldn't be apparent from these particular tests?
Thank you for this and other articles, which go a long way to demistifying the minefield of lens performance.
Brandon Dube ·
(1) - at full aperture. We do this at closed apertures too, but only on a few lenses as opposed to 5, 10, 20, etc. We test at full aperture to determine variance and quality standards (requires lots of lenses), and at small apertures (requires lots of time) on the side, sort of as a hobby. If a paying metrology customer wants data at f/8, we give them data at f/8. If the free blog wants data at f/8 and there are 13000 other things to do, well, don't hold your breath.
(2) - at best focus on axis. There are a lot of useful ways to look at focus with any kind of image quality metric.
Best focus on axis is simple and repeatable.
There is also best composite focus, which is a lot like how you would focus in a landscape shot - find the focus setting that gives the best average image quality across the frame. That one takes an extra 10-15 min per test to find and time is precious, so we don't do that.
There is best focus at all fields, where you do through focus at each field point and pull out the best focus. This one really has three sub cases, since best tangential, best sagittal, and best medial focus are probably all in different places. This one takes an extraordinary amount of time (10x longer than the standard 4 rotation test) and gives you performance numbers you can never obtain in reality, since the lens has to be focused in one place.
Lastly, there is "variable focus" where you have a slider, buttons, whatever, to look at the performance across the field, through focus with discrete steps. This requires the same dataset as best focus at all fields (and TIME), but gives you something that is physically realizable. It even includes best composite focus.
We are mostly interested in variance (which this post is about). If we took out two key aberrations (field curvature and astigmatism) by doing best focus at all fields, a lot of the variance would appear to go away when it wouldn't really in a photograph.
IMO best composite focus is the most useful if you can only have one, but doubling the test time for somewhat better information isn't a tradeoff we've made.
john boothe ·
Thank you both for your incredibly thorough replies. In many cases when taking photographs, I do a kind of focus stack in order to compensate for field curvature/skew, and stitch together the sharpest sections. Some lenses appear to have a 'soft side' or corner, but they actually sharpen up if you focus differently, so it's more a case of just a skewed focal plane. Others never get sharp in certain areas. Great to get some insight from you on the issue of field curvature/flatness - it's something that seems to get glossed over and not recognised in most lens reviews, even though it's clearly evident in published test shots.
Roger Cicala ·
John,
Unless we say otherwise it's widest aperture. Our real-life goal is to identify problem lenses and that's most apparent at widest aperture.
Field of focus curvature is important and we plan to start presenting it more. For example the MTF curve may look bad in the corners because the field is curved too much. It has practical purpose because if you were using an off-center focus point, then the image would be better than the MTF curve alone suggests.
Carleton Foxx ·
It makes me sad to say this because I love your stories and everything you do here, but this is why I find the charts in Popular Photography to be more useful. They show you the sharpest apertures and the sharpest focal lengths of each lens so that you can dial them in when you need sharpness.
Roger Cicala ·
Carleton, you aren’t hurting my feelings one bit. I love the Pop Photography charts and I think they’re really useful. I think the key is they painted with a broad brush and kept things practical and useful. They limited their graphs to SQF and commented on other things about the lens in the text. It’s the “all you need to know is 342.3” that drives me crazy.
Carleton Foxx ·
It makes me sad to say this because I love your stories and everything you do here, and I know this might hurt your feelings, and so I apologize for my insensitivity.
This is why I find the charts in Popular Photography to be so useful. The amazing Julia Silber charts out the sharpest apertures and the sharpest focal lengths of each lens so that you can dial them in when you need that quality out of your lens.
Perhaps there's some value in being old after all.
Roger Cicala ·
Carleton, you aren't hurting my feelings one bit. I love the Pop Photography charts and I think they're really useful. I think the key is they painted with a broad brush and kept things practical and useful. They limited their graphs to SQF and commented on other things about the lens in the text. It's the "all you need to know is 342.3" that drives me crazy.
Trebor123 ·
Roger, is the main problem, one of marketing versus physics? Zoom ratios have expanded, from the earlier designs, with a 2:1 focal-length ratio (35-70mm, 75-150mm etc.) to 2.5:1 (80-200mm) then 3:1 (70-210mm etc.) and as a consequence are more likely to have, despite improved optical glass and design:
1. Significantly varying performance across the focal-length range – often best at one end or the other, rather than in the middle of the zoom range.
2. Lower absolute performance than could otherwise be achieved, if the zoom ratio was more modest.
Sigma seem to have bucked the trend recently, with zoom ratios of 2:1 or less, prioritising quality over reach (18-35mm f1.8 and 50-100mm F1.8 for APC) but it does raise the question: could optical quality be further improved and performance variation reduced with an even lower zoom ratio, of perhaps 1.5:1? There is the Sigma 24-35mm F2, for full-frame but fast wideangle zooms, let alone wideangle to telephoto zooms, perhaps present even more of a design challenge?
In Micro Four-Thirds there are a number of very good/excellent 12mm to something zooms that all appear to perform best at 12mm. The Olympus 12-40mm F2.8 actually beats the Olympus 12mm F2 prime, for MTF50 resolution, at apertures between f2.8-F8! If this lens had been designed with a reduced zoom range (12-18mm or perhaps 12-24mm ) could it then have had even higher quality and/or increased maximum aperture?
http://www.lenstip.com/392.4-Lens_review-Olympus_M.Zuiko_Digital_12-40_mm_f_2.8_ED_PRO_Image_resolution.html
http://www.lenstip.com/310.4-Lens_review-Olympus_M.Zuiko_Digital_12_mm_f_2.0_ED_Image_resolution.html
Would keen photographers prefer higher quality zooms with a reduced zoom ratio? The zoom would probably be required to replace/substitute a minimum of 2-3 popular focal length primes but 24-35mm, or the equivalent for different formats, could replace 3 lenses as does the Sigma 18-35mm.
Otto ·
I think that’s beside the point of the article. Lenstip tested one 12mm lens and then one 12-40 lens. If they tested prime #6 and zoom #6 at 200mm it would look as the zoom is far superior. But, if they tested prime #1 and zoom #2 at 200mm the conclusion would be completely different.
The catch is that they would need to test a number of lenses and then publish results which would show both average results as well as variability between copies (like LR does). But, that’s very expensive and time consuming so it’s very rare in testing sites (of any equipment, not just lenses).
Everyone is doing their best, but people tend to interpret the results in a way they “feel” most suitable.
Otto ·
Just to add, all that does not mean you will get a lens that performs such and such, it just means that on average you are more likely to get such a lens.
Trebor123 ·
I understand the point about the greater variability to be expected in zoom lenses compared to primes, although floating elements and internal focus complicate the argument. However we do have the following 2 comments in the article, which may not always be true, as indicated by the counterfactual examples provided..
“A lot of people are aware that while a zoom can be as sharp as a prime in the center of the image, it rarely is in the corners.”
“A great zoom is not as good as a good prime at comparable apertures, but it’s plenty good, especially in the center of the image.”
For a given cost it is relatively easy to produce a prime that is optically superior to a zoom that includes this focal length. If, on the other hand, the zoom is say perhaps twice as expensive (production cost) but replaces 3 primes then perhaps this is no longer a given? Over to Roger, for his thoughts on the matter.
Impulse_Vigil ·
There’s a notorious amount of conflicting tests on the 12mm anyway… And one random zoom managing to do better at one focal length than one random prime within one random system doesn’t mean anything.
Trebor does have a good point about zoom ranges tho. A point that almost seems like common sense, only such a thing isn’t very common these days
Roger Cicala ·
Trebor, that’s an interesting point. We haven’t looked at it critically, but the Sigma 2X zooms do seem to have less variation, and that would seem logical. We’ll have to look into that a bit more.
l_d_allan ·
To me, zooms with less that at least 2.85:1 focal length ratio are pointless … 70-200mm and 24-70 are the ‘sweet spot”.
You might as well have several primes that are some combination of less expensive, smaller, few $$$, weigh less, better IQ, cost less, faster aperture, fewer aberrations, etc., Did I mention price?
I’m a fan of focal lengths that double
* 8mm fisheye Samyang
* 14mm Samyang
* 28mm Sony FE f/2
* 55mm Sony FE f/1.8
* 100mm Canon f/2.8 macro IS
But I am very pleased with my Canon 24-70 f/2.8 and 70-200 f/2.8 on my Canon 6d and adapted to my Sony a7Rii.
Curtis Patterson ·
Tokina AT-X 116 (11-16mm) f/2.8 was a fantastic zoom lens on crop sensor Nikons, often compared to primes in terms of corner to corner sharpness and color and contrast. I suspect that the zoom ratio being less than 1.5x helped this. Unfortunately the zoom was so small, that is seemed unnecessary – it might as well have been a prime lens.
Trebor123 ·
Roger, is the main problem, one of marketing versus physics? Zoom ratios have expanded, from the earlier designs, with a 2:1 focal-length ratio (35-70mm, 75-150mm etc.) to 2.5:1 (80-200mm) then 3:1 (70-210mm etc.) and as a consequence are more likely to have, despite improved optical glass and design:
1. Significantly varying performance across the focal-length range - often best at one end or the other, rather than in the middle of the zoom range.
2. Lower absolute performance than could otherwise be achieved, if the zoom ratio was more modest.
Sigma seem to have bucked the trend recently, with zoom ratios of 2:1 or less, prioritising quality over reach (18-35mm f1.8 and 50-100mm F1.8 for APC) but it does raise the question: could optical quality be further improved and performance variation reduced with an even lower zoom ratio, of perhaps 1.5:1? There is the Sigma 24-35mm F2, for full-frame but fast wideangle zooms, let alone wideangle to telephoto zooms, perhaps present even more of a design challenge?
In Micro Four-Thirds there are a number of very good/excellent 12mm to something zooms that all appear to perform best at 12mm. The Olympus 12-40mm F2.8 actually beats the Olympus 12mm F2 prime, for MTF50 resolution, at apertures between f2.8-F8! If this lens had been designed with a reduced zoom range (12-18mm or perhaps 12-24mm ) could it then have had even higher quality and/or increased maximum aperture?
http://www.lenstip.com/392....
http://www.lenstip.com/310....
Would keen photographers prefer higher quality zooms with a reduced zoom ratio? The zoom would probably be required to replace/substitute a minimum of 2-3 popular focal length primes but 24-35mm, or the equivalent for different formats, could replace 3 lenses as does the Sigma 18-35mm.
Otto ·
I think that's beside the point of the article. Lenstip tested one 12mm lens and then one 12-40 lens. If they tested prime #6 and zoom #6 at 200mm it would look as the zoom is far superior. But, if they tested prime #1 and zoom #2 at 200mm the conclusion would be completely different.
The catch is that they would need to test a number of lenses and then publish results which would show both average results as well as variability between copies (like LR does). But, that's very expensive and time consuming so it's very rare in testing sites (of any equipment, not just lenses).
Everyone is doing their best, but people tend to interpret the results in a way they "feel" most suitable.
Trebor123 ·
I understand the point about the greater variability to be expected in zoom lenses compared to primes, although floating elements and internal focus complicate the argument. However we do have the following 2 comments in the article, which may not always be true, as indicated by the counterfactual examples provided..
"A lot of people are aware that while a zoom can be as sharp as a prime in the center of the image, it rarely is in the corners."
"A great zoom is not as good as a good prime at comparable apertures, but it’s plenty good, especially in the center of the image."
For a given cost it is relatively easy to produce a prime that is optically superior to a zoom that includes this focal length. If, on the other hand, the zoom is say perhaps twice as expensive (production cost) but replaces 3 primes then perhaps this is no longer a given? Over to Roger, for his thoughts on the matter.
Impulse_Vigil ·
There's a notorious amount of conflicting tests on the 12mm anyway... And one random zoom managing to do better at one focal length than one random prime within one random system doesn't mean anything.
Trebor does have a good point about zoom ranges tho. A point that almost seems like common sense, only such a thing isn't very common these days
Roger Cicala ·
Trebor, that's an interesting point. We haven't looked at it critically, but the Sigma 2X zooms do seem to have less variation, and that would seem logical. We'll have to look into that a bit more.
l_d_allan ·
To me, zooms with less that at least 2.85:1 focal length ratio are pointless ... 70-200mm and 24-70 are the 'sweet spot".
You might as well have several primes that are some combination of less expensive, smaller, few $$$, weigh less, better IQ, cost less, faster aperture, fewer aberrations, etc., Did I mention price?
I'm a fan of focal lengths that double
* 8mm fisheye Samyang
* 14mm Samyang
* 28mm Sony FE f/2
* 55mm Sony FE f/1.8
* 100mm Canon f/2.8 macro IS
But I am very pleased with my Canon 24-70 f/2.8 and 70-200 f/2.8 on my Canon 6d and adapted to my Sony a7Rii.
Curtis Patterson ·
Tokina AT-X 116 (11-16mm) f/2.8 was a fantastic zoom lens on crop sensor Nikons, often compared to primes in terms of corner to corner sharpness and color and contrast. I suspect that the zoom ratio being less than 1.5x helped this. Unfortunately the zoom was so small, that is seemed unnecessary - it might as well have been a prime lens.
Dave Jones ·
i i i …. This argument seems to go on to infinity. Maybe we should all just have a piece of of our favorite pi and call it even.
Well written. I really like the way the the test bench is differentiated from the photograph!
Dave Jones ·
i i i .... This argument seems to go on to infinity. Maybe we should all just have a piece of of our favorite pi and call it even.
Well written. I really like the way the the test bench is differentiated from the photograph!
Brett Rogers ·
Dear Roger,
Thank you to you and your team for putting your time into your articles, and for all the testing you do in connection with them. They’re very informative essays. always interesting, and greatly appreciated.
Best Regards,
Brett
Roger Cicala ·
Thank you Brett.
Brett Rogers ·
Dear Roger,
Thank you to you and your team for putting your time into your articles, and for all the testing you do in connection with them. They're very informative essays. always interesting, and greatly appreciated.
Best Regards,
Brett
Caerolle ·
Ugh, I have dropped most of my lens on carpeted floors from about TV-tray height at one time or another. I always hope they are ok, but hard to say if they are a bit off. I know you guys have more productive things to do than run a lens-testing and repair service, and if you did, it would probably be very expensive, but would be awesome to be able to send lenses somewhere to get them tested and adjusted. From what I have read about manufacturer testing and adjustment, unless they are horrid and obviously so, they probably don’t do much,
Roger Cicala ·
Caerolle, we will, hopefully in the next 6 months, be offering testing to the public. Not quite the NASA level stuff, but very similar to what you see in the blog posts.
Caerolle ·
Wow, that would be awesome! Thanks! 🙂
Impulse_Vigil ·
Indeed.
Caerolle ·
Wow, that would be awesome! Thanks! :)
Caerolle ·
Ugh, I have dropped most of my lens on carpeted floors from about TV-tray height at one time or another. I always hope they are ok, but hard to say if they are a bit off. I know you guys have more productive things to do than run a lens-testing and repair service, and if you did, it would probably be very expensive, but would be awesome to be able to send lenses somewhere to get them tested and adjusted. From what I have read about manufacturer testing and adjustment, unless they are horrid and obviously so, they probably don't do much,
Dalen ·
I wish you would MTF a lot more here. How about a follow up?
Dragon ·
Actually, if you had a 42 lens, you would have to spend the rest of eternity finding the ultimate subject to shoot with it. Very stressful :-).
Photographer100 ·
what if you own 260+ lenses?
Dragon ·
That wasn’t 42 lenses, but a lens rated “42”. If you haven’t read “Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy”, the comment will make no sense to you, but Roger clearly has read it and will understand the connection to the “ultimate question”.
Impulse_Vigil ·
Googling the quote is enough for context FWIW. And there’s always the movie! 😛
Dragon ·
Actually, if you had a 42 lens, you would have to spend the rest of eternity finding the ultimate subject to shoot with it. Very stressful :-).
Photographer100 ·
what if you own 260+ lenses?
Dragon ·
That wasn't 42 lenses, but a lens rated "42". If you haven't read "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy", the comment will make no sense to you, but Roger clearly has read it and will understand the connection to the "ultimate question".
Impulse_Vigil ·
Googling the quote is enough for context FWIW. And there's always the movie! :P
jlw518 ·
This makes so much sense. I’m thinking of the endless kerfluffle about the Sony/Zeiss 24-70mm f4 based on a few early reviews. I had a copy of that lens that was sharp; my images looked nothing like the fuzzy mess that popped up on a review site or two. On the other hand, a copy of the much lauded kit 28-70mm f 3.5-5.6 that I tried was just awful, especially on the edges. People to this day argue about the performance of the 24-70mm lens, three years later, based on those early reviews of single samples….
Some of my M43 lenses showed similar variability. I had a really good copy of the Panasonic 100-300mm that was surprisingly sharp even out at 300mm; a great copy of the plastic fantastic Oly 40-150mm f4-5.6, and a wonderful copy of the Oly 12mm f2. Stupid me decided to sell them all to move to the A7 system. Two years later I returned to M43, and had to repurchase everything. The second copies were definitely different than the first. The 100-300m was soft above about 260mm (which is far more normal for that lens than the sharp-at-300mm one I had previously). The 40-150mm is just an average performer; not bad but not outstanding. And the 12mm? It took me four tries to get one that was close to my original (and it’s still not quite as good, but close enough for me).
This makes all of that really make sense, and leads me to the conclusion that if you get a particularly good copy of a lens, whatever you do DO NOT SELL IT . You will regret it later 🙂 .
Impulse_Vigil ·
Truth. The 12mm is notoriously hit or miss for a prime (and a higher priced one at that)… I wouldn’t even recommend it at full retail tbh, even tho I like shooting with mine a lot.
jlw518 ·
This makes so much sense. I'm thinking of the endless kerfluffle about the Sony/Zeiss 24-70mm f4 based on a few early reviews. I had a copy of that lens that was sharp; my images looked nothing like the fuzzy mess that popped up on a review site or two. On the other hand, a copy of the much lauded kit 28-70mm f 3.5-5.6 that I tried was just awful, especially on the edges. People to this day argue about the performance of the 24-70mm lens, three years later, based on those early reviews of single samples....
Some of my M43 lenses showed similar variability. I had a really good copy of the Panasonic 100-300mm that was surprisingly sharp even out at 300mm; a great copy of the plastic fantastic Oly 40-150mm f4-5.6, and a wonderful copy of the Oly 12mm f2. Stupid me decided to sell them all to move to the A7 system. Two years later I returned to M43, and had to repurchase everything. The second copies were definitely different than the first. The 100-300m was soft above about 260mm (which is far more normal for that lens than the sharp-at-300mm one I had previously). The 40-150mm is just an average performer; not bad but not outstanding. And the 12mm? It took me four tries to get one that was close to my original (and it's still not quite as good, but it is close enough).
This makes all of that really make sense, and leads me to the conclusion that if you get a particularly good copy of a lens, whatever you do DO NOT SELL IT . You will regret it later :) .
Impulse_Vigil ·
Truth. The 12mm is notoriously hit or miss for a prime (and a higher priced one at that)... I wouldn't even recommend it at full retail tbh, even tho I like shooting with mine a lot.
obeychad ·
I’ll be waiting patiently for the Lomo Petzval vs. the Lensbaby Twist 60 test. I can’t wait to see the beautiful undulations between red, orange and yellow. Sends my heart a flutter.
Roger Cicala ·
Damn! I may have to do that just to see how many colors we get in one graph. Except I’m not sure we have an surviving Petzvals. Not the most durable lens in the bag.
obeychad ·
I'll be waiting patiently for the Lomo Petzval vs. the Lensbaby Twist 60 test. I can't wait to see the beautiful undulations between red, orange and yellow. Sends my heart a flutter.
Roger Cicala ·
Damn! I may have to do that just to see how many colors we get in one graph. Except I'm not sure we have an surviving Petzvals. Not the most durable lens in the bag.
Pentax Shooter ·
“… I still don’t believe that general ignorance and disinformation is a good thing.”
You need to emigrate, dude.
From the planet.
Impulse_Vigil ·
Don’t be such a pessimist… He’s just not gonna make photography great again, but we still love the articles. 😉
Natt McFee ·
Great article! This is off topic, but I noticed in your bio that you shoot with a K1 (which is my current favorite camera) and am wondering which lenses you’re liking best for it. And also if you have any insider info about any new glass for it? Thanks!
Roger Cicala ·
Natt, I have no inside information at all on Pentax, and if I did I couldn’t share. I shot the Sigma 35 and 50 Art, Pentax 77mm and 15-30mm on it and liked them all, but the 300mm f/4 was my favorite and the reason I got into it.
Natt McFee ·
Thanks for the reply! I’ve been using the 35, 43 and 77 but have needed something longer. I’ll give the 300 a shot. Thanks again!
Albert ·
Damn. Now you have upset my financial apple cart. Here I have been walking along with my K-3 (which replaced a K10 that replaced…) and DA 55-300 or M 400 Pentax lenses, and you are pushing my LBA toward the DA* 300/4 and DA 1.4x to replace the zoom AND the 400.
On the other hand, I have 63 likes on Pentax Forums over the last little while … and a couple of them are for shots with the consumer level zoom and the ancient prime …
Great article. I wish that more people would pay attention to what they are taking pictures of and less of the brick wall tests they exchange back and forth. None of them have used a Takumar 135mm f3.5 preset lens on a manual focus, manual exposure camera. Virtually ALL the modern stuff at any price blows it away — except for that lovely soft flare I got of a lovely artist in Stanley Park with her easel reflecting the light into her face with the 135 mentioned above on Kodachrome 25, with an effect that is VERY hard to get with modern coated glass.
Natt McFee ·
Great article! This is off topic, but I noticed in your bio that you shoot with a K1 (which is my current favorite camera) and am wondering which lenses you're liking best for it. And also if you have any insider info about any new glass for it? Thanks!
Roger Cicala ·
Natt, I have no inside information at all on Pentax, and if I did I couldn't share. I shot the Sigma 35 and 50 Art, Pentax 77mm and 15-30mm on it and liked them all, but the 300mm f/4 was my favorite and the reason I got into it.
Natt McFee ·
Thanks for the reply! I've been using the 35, 43 and 77 but have needed something longer. I'll give the 300 a shot. Thanks again!
Albert ·
Damn. Now you have upset my financial apple cart. Here I have been walking along with my K-3 (which replaced a K10 that replaced...) and DA 55-300 or M 400 Pentax lenses, and you are pushing my LBA toward the DA* 300/4 and DA 1.4x to replace the zoom AND the 400.
On the other hand, I have 63 likes on Pentax Forums over the last little while ... and a couple of them are for shots with the consumer level zoom and the ancient prime ...
Great article. I wish that more people would pay attention to what they are taking pictures of and less of the brick wall tests they exchange back and forth. None of them have used a Takumar 135mm f3.5 preset lens on a manual focus, manual exposure camera. Virtually ALL the modern stuff at any price blows it away -- except for that lovely soft flare I got of a lovely artist in Stanley Park with her easel reflecting the light into her face with the 135 mentioned above on Kodachrome 25, with an effect that is VERY hard to get with modern coated glass.
William T Lloyd ·
Thank you, Roger, for providing the science and methodology to those in our modern world who just WILL NOT believe unless they see hard, cold numbers.
Others, those of us who come from an earlier, more primitive time, accepted on faith the pronouncements of our days’ sages. And, our trust is now proven. For behold! it is just as Saint Michael fortold:
““Most Lenses are Better Than Most Photographers”
https://luminous-landscape.com/sharp/
Roger Cicala ·
A moment of silence for Saint Michael. A good man and a credit to us all.
Dave New ·
I bought a 70-300 DO IS for my Canon camera based on a review on LuLa. It was OK, until I upgraded from my 8MP 20D to a 7D. Then I found that it was soft above 200mm, and I couldn’t stand to shoot with it any more. I finally got a 100-400mm L II soon after they came out, and the difference in the field was gratifying. I’m sure that if I go to a 50MP body in the future, all my glass will look like crap.
There was also an article on LuLa many years ago, pointing out that a 13MP Canon 1DS would out-resolve most of the current crop of lenses. It took a while for the lenses to catch up with the sensors.
So it goes…
Dave New ·
I bought a 70-300 DO IS for my Canon camera based on a review on LuLa. It was OK, until I upgraded from my 8MP 20D to a 7D. Then I found that it was soft above 200mm, and I couldn't stand to shoot with it any more. I finally got a 100-400mm L II soon after they came out, and the difference in the field was gratifying. I'm sure that if I go to a 50MP body in the future, all my glass will look like crap.
There was also an article on LuLa many years ago, pointing out that a 13MP Canon 1DS would out-resolve most of the current crop of lenses. It took a while for the lenses to catch up with the sensors.
So it goes...
William T Lloyd ·
Thank you, Roger, for providing the science and methodology to those in our modern world who just WILL NOT believe unless they see hard, cold numbers.
Others, those of us who come from an earlier, more primitive time, accepted on faith the pronouncements of our days' sages. And, our trust is now proven. For behold! it is just as Saint Michael fortold:
"“Most Lenses are Better Than Most Photographers”
https://luminous-landscape....
Shimon Mor ·
Yup, 42. Always the best answer to the most irrelevant questions.
Veselin Gramatikov ·
Good one but nothing new. The comprasion may be little more interesting if you include same focal lenghts, price, weight, f-stop and so on. Speaking of just primes and zooms ..is not very interesting. It`s very clear that the zooms are weaker and they vary a lot more. But it`s is true that some high quality zooms are close and some times better than average prime lens.
We know that top quality prime is just ubeatable. One zoom will never go as good as 400 2.8 prime or 85 1.4 prime lens.
But some zooms are better than some average and cheaper primes. For example Sigma 18-35, 50-100 and 24-25 zooms are very close to f/2.0 primes. Other example is that some new zoom as Nikkor 200-500 5.6 is not far behind some older primers as Canon 400 5.6. Good example is Canon 200-400/4.0 zoom. Yes is not like 300 and 400 prime but the lens are very close to cheaper 300/4 prime as iq (for 10-times the price). So speaking just primes vs zoom without any other definition is almost stupid.
T N Args ·
A top quality prime is *only* unbeatable if [a] you have total freedom to go anywhere with your camera and [b] you have total control over any mobile elements in the subject.
Ergo, a top quality prime is *never* unbeatable outside of a studio.
Veselin Gramatikov ·
Sometimes even ot the field a good 300 2.8 prime is far better than any zoom. As long as you know what you are shooting and what distance. 2-stops sometimes make a difference between good shot and nothing at all.
T N Args ·
“… As long as you know what you are shooting and what distance.” Yes, that means [a] and [b] are true in my statement. Thanks for agreeing. And your 2-stop advantage is imaginary. There are f/2.8 zooms and f/4 zooms, and f/4 primes.
T N Args ·
"... As long as you know what you are shooting and what distance." Yes, that means [a] and [b] are true in my statement. Thanks for agreeing. And your 2-stop advantage is imaginary. There are f/2.8 zooms and f/4 zooms, and f/4 primes.
Veselin Gramatikov ·
Good one but nothing new. The comprasion may be little more interesting if you include same focal lenghts, price, weight, f-stop and so on. Speaking of just primes and zooms ..is not very interesting. It`s very clear that the zooms are weaker and they vary a lot more. But it`s is true that some high quality zooms are close and some times better than average prime lens.
We know that top quality prime is just ubeatable. One zoom will never go as good as 400 2.8 prime or 85 1.4 prime lens.
But some zooms are better than some average and cheaper primes. For example Sigma 18-35, 50-100 and 24-25 zooms are very close to f/2.0 primes. Other example is that some new zoom as Nikkor 200-500 5.6 is not far behind some older primers as Canon 400 5.6. Good example is Canon 200-400/4.0 zoom. Yes is not like 300 and 400 prime but the lens are very close to cheaper 300/4 prime as iq (for 10-times the price). So speaking just primes vs zoom without any other definition is almost stupid.
T N Args ·
A top quality prime is *only* unbeatable if [a] you have total freedom to go anywhere with your camera and [b] you have total control over any mobile elements in the subject.
Ergo, a top quality prime is *never* unbeatable outside of a studio.
Alan Fersht ·
How would you rate the Canon 100-400mm II vs 400mm f/5.6, given your own MTF measurements, collaged by me? It looks at first sight that the zoom has the edge on the prime over the major area that counts. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2625f034976e69a262ed4095dff23a35afa082b3a04301096660e5925cd0e8ce.jpg
Roger Cicala ·
The zoom is a bit better in the center, no question. I’d call them even in the edges. IF we look at the average of 10 copies, which is what we’re doing. My point isn’t supposed to be that a modern excellent zoom can’t be better than a 20 year old design prime.
My major point is that those 100-400 zooms will vary more (we’re looking at 10 or 15 copy averages here): some will be better at 100, some at 250, some at 400. And trying to compare any single copy to say the 400 prime and 200 prime by saying the zoom is 9834 and the prime is 8756 is silly.
Alan Fersht ·
How would you rate the Canon 100-400mm II vs 400mm f/5.6, given your own MTF measurements, collaged by me? It looks at first sight that the zoom has the edge on the prime over the major area that counts. https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
Roger Cicala ·
The zoom is a bit better in the center, no question. I'd call them even in the edges. IF we look at the average of 10 copies, which is what we're doing. My point isn't supposed to be that a modern excellent zoom can't be better than a 20 year old design prime.
My major point is that those 100-400 zooms will vary more (we're looking at 10 or 15 copy averages here): some will be better at 100, some at 250, some at 400. And trying to compare any single copy to say the 400 prime and 200 prime by saying the zoom is 9834 and the prime is 8756 is silly.
Tom ·
How come the charts are so low res that I can’t read the legends and scales?
All the verbiage holding my hand as though I was a child cannot overcome this.
Roger Cicala ·
Because our blog platform makes me compress them to 600 pixels wide.
And joke? You understand joke?
Tom ·
You can provide links to larger images.
Or alternatively you can be less condescending in your presentation of “science” while omitting the definitions of the quantitative measure your claim are significant. Scientifically speaking, charts without are meaningless.
Claudia Muster ·
So you haven’t understood that this text was not about absolute numbers?
Roger Cicala ·
Tom, you are correct about the larger links and I do that when I think the detail is important. In this case, I was just trying to present a gestalt.
l_d_allan ·
Y.A.G.B.A. … yet another great blog article … thanks
l_d_allan ·
Y.A.G.B.A. ... yet another great blog article ... thanks
Roger Cicala ·
Because our blog platform makes me compress them to 600 pixels wide.
And joke? You understand joke?
chrisgull ·
Avocados are good.
Karl Blessing ·
Will sum this up for the most part.
Primes vs Zooms when comparing with the *Same* price range. The Primes will be :
– Faster/Brighter
– Lighter
– Smaller
– Sharper
The main reasons for the zooms is :
– You need to carry one or two lens without limiting your focal range option (though you limit your aperture option unless you pay the big bucks)
– Have a situation where you need to re-frame the shot but will not be able to move physically quick enough to do so
– Have a desired focal length you don’t get in between common prime optoins
That Oz Guy ·
Don’t forget the extra camera bodies. If you’re not someone who can change a lens in a couple of nanoseconds but you still want photos of moving things, having a case full of primes and one body is no good to you. And at some point it stops mattering how many primes+bodies you have, you can’t find the one you want when you want it. So for some of use it’s not $X for the zoom vs $x/2 for prime A and $X/2 for prime B, it’s (plus $ZZZZ for a second/third/fifteenth camera body).
I like the LR ranticles because they give me a bit more scientific basis for my prejudices. I know from general principles that more complex = more variable, but now I have numbers! So I can make slightly more informed guesses about what lenses to buy/use.
Echo ·
“Don’t forget the extra camera bodies. If you’re not someone who can change a lens in a couple of nanoseconds”
Or the increased drop risk of this. Changing lenses on the fly is a recipe for a dropped 70-200 or 35/2IS. Don’t ask me how I know…
Karl Blessing ·
Will sum this up for the most part.
Primes vs Zooms when comparing with the *Same* price range. The Primes will be :
- Faster/Brighter
- Lighter
- Smaller
- Sharper
The main reasons for the zooms is :
- You need to carry one or two lens without limiting your focal range option (though you limit your aperture option unless you pay the big bucks)
- Have a situation where you need to re-frame the shot but will not be able to move physically quick enough to do so
- Have a desired focal length you don't get in between common prime optoins
That Oz Guy ·
Don't forget the extra camera bodies. If you're not someone who can change a lens in a couple of nanoseconds but you still want photos of moving things, having a case full of primes and one body is no good to you. And at some point it stops mattering how many primes+bodies you have, you can't find the one you want when you want it. So for some of use it's not $X for the zoom vs $x/2 for prime A and $X/2 for prime B, it's (plus $ZZZZ for a second/third/fifteenth camera body).
I like the LR ranticles because they give me a bit more scientific basis for my prejudices. I know from general principles that more complex = more variable, but now I have numbers! So I can make slightly more informed guesses about what lenses to buy/use.
Echo ·
"Don't forget the extra camera bodies. If you're not someone who can change a lens in a couple of nanoseconds"
Or the increased drop risk of this. Changing lenses on the fly is a recipe for a dropped 70-200 or 35/2IS. Don't ask me how I know...
showmeyourpics ·
Hi Roger, thanks for the good article. As an end-user, the most useful piece of info about a lens would be the capability of the process that manufactures it. Sampling does not work since product variables change chaotically within production batches with runs of tight tolerances followed by clusters of (hopefully) almost out-of-tolerance units. In real life, as a part-time fine art pro, I judge a lens by taking a number of pictures of different subjects in different exposure conditions, processing them to the best of my ability, making my own 24 x 36″ test prints and checking how good they look.
Roger Cicala ·
That sir, is the ultimate test and the only one that matters.
I’m a testing geek, but I choose the lenses I shoot with on the same basis as you. I view testing as a screening tool. Let me help you narrow your choices so you can look at 2 or 3 lenses that fit your criteria, not 9 that might. And then, perhaps, let me help you see the strengths and weaknesses of that tool so you can use it best.
showmeyourpics ·
Yes, your articles help a lot in putting gear reviews in the proper perspective and narrowing down purchasing choices, and that’s why I read them all. Thanks again. If I managed to upload my picture, it’s the day before yesterday snow moon taken with my go-everywhere Nikon P7800 🙂 while I was XC skiing in a park on the Long Island Sound.
wondrouslightdotsmugmugdotcom ·
Hi Roger, thanks for the good article. As an end-user, the most useful piece of info about a lens would be the capability of the process that manufactures it. Sampling does not work since product variables change chaotically within production batches with runs of tight tolerances followed by clusters of (hopefully) almost out-of-tolerance units. In real life, as a part-time fine art pro, I judge a lens by taking a number of pictures of different subjects in different exposure conditions, processing them to the best of my ability, making my own 24 x 36" test prints and checking how good they look.
Roger Cicala ·
That sir, is the ultimate test and the only one that matters.
I'm a testing geek, but I choose the lenses I shoot with on the same basis as you. I view testing as a screening tool. Let me help you narrow your choices so you can look at 2 or 3 lenses that fit your criteria, not 9 that might. And then, perhaps, let me help you see the strengths and weaknesses of that tool so you can use it best.
wondrouslightdotsmugmugdotcom ·
Yes, your articles help a lot in putting gear reviews in the proper perspective and narrowing down purchasing choices, and that's why I read them all. Thanks again. If I managed to upload my picture, it's the day before yesterday snow moon taken with my go-everywhere Nikon P7800 :) while I was XC skiing in a park on the Long Island Sound.
Tillman Bennett ·
“Can they still be very good? Absolutely. Can they be as good as the best primes? Nope. On the other hand, the best primes don’t zoom worth a damn. Horses for courses.”
This is a fantastic statement. Wonderful article, thank you for the easily digestible yet complex information you’ve presented here. Fascinating stuff.
Tillman Bennett ·
"Can they still be very good? Absolutely. Can they be as good as the best primes? Nope. On the other hand, the best primes don’t zoom worth a damn. Horses for courses."
This is a fantastic statement. Wonderful article, thank you for the easily digestible yet complex information you've presented here. Fascinating stuff.
Antonis Ricos ·
So then, on a practical level: could you offer tiers of tested performance for a price?
Current prices may apply to lenses that meet the “pass” test. But there could also be tighter tolerances for a higher cost (rent or sell)? Also, how about letting those who rent or buy a lens see the OLAF charts for it (and comparisons to other samples)? All with the caveat that things become “visible” only under certain circumstances and that for “general use”, the lenses that “pass” are (more than) good enough. Frankly, I’d rather buy a used lens from lensauthority that has been tested than throw the dice for a brand new sample.
Roger Cicala ·
Antonis, for high-end primes we will probably start including test charts with the lens, because really near perfection is expected by the buyer. For zooms, I fear we would open pandoras box – plus zoom testing is 3X more expensive than prime testing, just from the business side of things.
Antonis ·
Understood. I’m just hoping you can “monetize” lens tests to everyone’s advantage.
Antonis ·
So then, on a practical level: could you offer tiers of tested performance for a price?
Current prices may apply to lenses that meet the "pass" test. But there could also be tighter tolerances for a higher cost (rent or sell)? Also, how about letting those who rent or buy a lens see the OLAF charts for it (and comparisons to other samples)? All with the caveat that things become "visible" only under certain circumstances and that for "general use", the lenses that "pass" are (more than) good enough. Frankly, I'd rather buy a used lens from lensauthority that has been tested than throw the dice for a brand new sample.
Roger Cicala ·
Antonis, for high-end primes we will probably start including test charts with the lens, because really near perfection is expected by the buyer. For zooms, I fear we would open pandoras box - plus zoom testing is 3X more expensive than prime testing, just from the business side of things.
Antonis ·
Understood. I'm just hoping you can "monetize" lens tests to everyone's advantage.
Martijn ten Napel ·
I have onze question: you remark “I’ll go ahead and tell you (because someone will notice) these are f/2.8 primes; no f/1.4 prime could resolve 30 line pairs this well.”
Why is that? Because 1.4 lenses have a larger mass of glass, with more distortion as a result? Breaking of the light prohibits it from resolving as a result? Or what is the cause? I never thought about this before reading this remark.
Roger Cicala ·
Marijn, at really wide apertures all of the aberrations just can’t be corrected. There are actually some new primes that are blue in the center 1/2 at f/1.4, but not all across the lens. It’s basically the opposite of ‘stop down two stops and your lens is sharper’.
Martijn ten Napel ·
Thanks for clarifying. Can I conclude that faster prime lenses are in general as sharp as slower ones at the same aperture?
Martijn ten Napel ·
I have onze question: you remark "I’ll go ahead and tell you (because someone will notice) these are f/2.8 primes; no f/1.4 prime could resolve 30 line pairs this well."
Why is that? Because 1.4 lenses have a larger mass of glass, with more distortion as a result? Breaking of the light prohibits it from resolving as a result? Or what is the cause? I never thought about this before reading this remark.
Roger Cicala ·
Marijn, at really wide apertures all of the aberrations just can't be corrected. There are actually some new primes that are blue in the center 1/2 at f/1.4, but not all across the lens. It's basically the opposite of 'stop down two stops and your lens is sharper'.
Martijn ten Napel ·
Thanks for clarifying. Can I conclude that faster prime lenses are in general as sharp as slower ones at the same aperture?
Claudia Muster ·
So you haven't understood that this text was not about absolute numbers?
Wilson Laidlaw ·
Roger,
Many thanks for that very clear and educational article. How do you feel the equation changes on zooms, when the lens designers and makers decide they will permit certain optical/imaging defects, because they can perform in camera correction for those defects and thereby optimise the lens for other parameters, on which otherwise, they would have had to compromise? The zoom would communicate its focal length, aperture, focal distance and characteristics for that lens model to the body, which then makes the appropriate corrections digitally for those parameters or builds the information for the required corrections into the EXIF on the RAW file, for the corrections (e.g. pincushion or barrel distortion) to be made in post processing.
Roger Cicala ·
Wilson, I think often that some manufacturer will eventually come out with a system where you photograph a certain test chart with your lens on your camera, then plug the camera into your computer and the firmware updates corrections. It couldn’t solve all problems, but it could make huge improvements.
I think one of the hold ups is cultural: to do that they have to admit that lenses aren’t perfect and they are trying very hard not to admit that. We host engineers from major companies fairly often. It’s interesting. As one told me, “we do not want that kind of testing because it just shows things that are what they are and can’t be changed”.
Tim Cooper ·
For distortion you can do this fairly simply in the latest Lightroom with Upright Guides and copy/paste settings.
I’m not sure I actually want to, though. But I’m more arty than technical. Upright Guides are pretty awesome when I want them, though.
Impulse_Vigil ·
It’s probably also logistical… They do that and the number of lenses returned after purchase probably goes up, which in the long run would have the bean counters adjusting their price, domino effect…
Dave New ·
A few years ago, the laptop/LCD display industry tried to convince folks that a few scattered ‘hot pixels’ were NOT defects, and that you couldn’t return a system based on that. The reaction from the user community was swift. Those that insisted on shipping crap soon found that no one would buy their stuff, and the problem magically went away (the manufacturers scrap the scrap and ship only good displays).
Wilson Laidlaw ·
Roger,
Many thanks for that very clear and educational article. How do you feel the equation changes on zooms, when the lens designers and makers decide they will permit certain optical/imaging defects, because they can perform in camera correction for those defects and thereby optimise the lens for other parameters, on which otherwise, they would have had to compromise? The zoom would communicate its focal length, aperture, focal distance and characteristics for that lens model to the body, which then makes the appropriate corrections digitally for those parameters or builds the information for the required corrections into the EXIF on the RAW file, for the corrections (e.g. pincushion or barrel distortion) to be made in post processing.
Roger Cicala ·
Wilson, I think often that some manufacturer will eventually come out with a system where you photograph a certain test chart with your lens on your camera, then plug the camera into your computer and the firmware updates corrections. It couldn't solve all problems, but it could make huge improvements.
I think one of the hold ups is cultural: to do that they have to admit that lenses aren't perfect and they are trying very hard not to admit that. We host engineers from major companies fairly often. It's interesting. As one told me, "we do not want that kind of testing because it just shows things that are what they are and can't be changed".
Tim Cooper ·
For distortion you can do this fairly simply in the latest Lightroom with Upright Guides and copy/paste settings.
I'm not sure I actually want to, though. But I'm more arty than technical. Upright Guides are pretty awesome when I want them, though.
Impulse_Vigil ·
It's probably also logistical... They do that and the number of lenses returned after purchase probably goes up, which in the long run would have the bean counters adjusting their price, domino effect...
Dave New ·
A few years ago, the laptop/LCD display industry tried to convince folks that a few scattered 'hot pixels' were NOT defects, and that you couldn't return a system based on that. The reaction from the user community was swift. Those that insisted on shipping crap soon found that no one would buy their stuff, and the problem magically went away (the manufacturers scrap the scrap and ship only good displays).
David Bo Hansen Cartagena ·
This confirms my own findings.
I use to own a Sony Zeiss 24-70 f/2.8
I tested a copy in my local photo store and it was great even at 24 and f/2.8 in the corners and also at 70 and f/2.8.
I rember to find the great sharpness at f/2.8 and at 24 mm weird because every test I read said the completely opposite and also showed it.
Then I bought another copy of the lens (due to the price)from another store.
The two lenses was like night and day especially from 50-70 and even at f/8.
The new copy was quite decentered and had a terrible sharpness difference between the two sides of the frame even at f/8.
Also had a new Sony 70-200 G that was decentered from new. Sent it in for adjustment and second time they got it right.
What is your findings regarding adjusting the lenses? Could you adjust the bad exampels in your above article so they get closer to the best examples ot maybe even just as good?
Just one additional question.
Can you recommend some litterature regarding lens/optical design and maybe some about the more general optical principles?
Thanks for the article.
Roger Cicala ·
David, the general rule of adjusting is you can make bad average, but you can’t make average great.
For testing and evaluation, Malarca’s Optical Shop Testing is awesome if you can find it, but pricey.
Kingslake’s “Lens Design Fundamentals” and Smith’s “Modern Lens Design” are under $100 and can be found used for a lot less. There are a lot of others in the next price range. I’d also recommend Kingslake’s “A History of the Photographic Lens”. I found it made a lot more sense in the beginning of my travels to see the history of how lenses were improved.
Mike Earussi ·
Hey, one of the best lenses I ever owned was a single coated Zeiss Tessar on an old Rollei.
David Bo Hansen Cartagena ·
Thanks Roger.
Really appreciate your answer.
And I agree an average lens element can’t be made great.
Maybe I should also note that it probably was a lens element tilt instead of decentering that made my lenses bad.
Best regards
David
Roger Cicala ·
David, the general rule of adjusting is you can make bad average, but you can't make average great.
For testing and evaluation, Malarca's Optical Shop Testing is awesome if you can find it, but pricey.
Kingslake's "Lens Design Fundamentals" and Smith's "Modern Lens Design" are under $100 and can be found used for a lot less. There are a lot of others in the next price range. I'd also recommend Kingslake's "A History of the Photographic Lens". I found it made a lot more sense in the beginning of my travels to see the history of how lenses were improved.
Mike Earussi ·
I want the one rated 42. Maybe that would give my life some meaning.
Alfred Dodds ·
That’s all very good, but let us see some photos taken of the Moon with that big lens to see how good it is, and i will show you some taken with a £360 GBP camera with its fixed lens of the Moon.
Alfred Dodds ·
That's all very good, but let us see some photos taken of the Moon with that big lens to see how good it is, and i will show you some taken with a £360 GBP camera with its fixed lens of the Moon.
Mike Earussi ·
Any time frame on testing Sigma’s 24-35 f2? It’s supposed to be as good as the three primes it replaces. 🙂
Roger Cicala ·
Done long ago. https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/09/sigma-24-35mm-f2-dg-hsm-art-mtf-curves-and-sample-variation/
Mike Earussi ·
Thanks, looks like it’s pretty good.
Mike Earussi ·
Any time frame on testing Sigma's 24-35 f2? It's supposed to be as good as the three primes it replaces. :)
Roger Cicala ·
Done long ago. https://www.lensrentals.com...
Mike Earussi ·
Thanks, looks like it's pretty good.
John Isaacs ·
The meaning of life is a Golden apple PiE. Yum.
Dave Hodson ·
Great article – thanks.
Can you comment on the impacts of in-camera software? Does it reduce variations between lenses and across lenses?
How can you test these in-camera corrected lenses – do you need to test the camera/lens together?
I find it hard to believe that the $2500 Olympus m4/3 300mm f4.0 Pro is as good a lens as the $7000 SGH 300mm f2.0 it replaced.
Roger Cicala ·
Dave you would definitely need to test them together. The summary should be that for small differences in camera processes should even them out and make them less noticeable. But because those processes are geared toward ‘average’ if a lens has a bad area it could actually make it more noticeable. For example if three corners get sharper but the 4th is blurred in a certain way it might not sharpen much at all, making the difference more apparent.
Dave Hodson ·
Thanks for the response and sorry for intruding on your weekend. In-camera software has been a bit of a sharp stick in my eye for a while and I’m wondering if I’m overreacting. Nobody seems to be too vocal or revolting but it appears to me that it can make a mediocre lens look better than it is and push lenses into the electronic consumable category – only as good as the software version running it.
Dave Hodson ·
Great article - thanks.
Can you comment on the impacts of in-camera software? Does it reduce variations between lenses and across lenses?
How can you test these in-camera corrected lenses - do you need to test the camera/lens together?
I find it hard to believe that the $2500 Olympus m4/3 300mm f4.0 Pro is as good a lens as the $7000 SGH 300mm f2.0 it replaced.
Roger Cicala ·
Dave you would definitely need to test them together. The summary should be that for small differences in camera processes should even them out and make them less noticeable. But because those processes are geared toward 'average' if a lens has a bad area it could actually make it more noticeable. For example if three corners get sharper but the 4th is blurred in a certain way it might not sharpen much at all, making the difference more apparent.
Dave Hodson ·
Thanks for the response and sorry for intruding on your weekend. In-camera software has been a bit of a sharp stick in my eye for a while and I'm wondering if I'm overreacting. Nobody seems to be too vocal or revolting but it appears to me that it can make a mediocre lens look better than it is and push lenses into the electronic consumable category - only as good as the software version running it.
Steinar Knai ·
Great article. Without being too scientific, it makes the point graphically and comforts me in my choice of lenses.
Ian Goss ·
*It’s* is not the same word as *its*.
Roger Cicala ·
Did I do that again? Rechecking article now. 🙂
Roger Cicala ·
Did I do that again? Rechecking article now. :-) I did. Fixed two at least.
Scott M. ·
Do you use OLAF to make the lenses you rent better? Could you rent primes based on high numbers and charge a premium for the top numbers? This would be attractive to some of us I think. I rented a Nikkor 300mm 2.8VRII from another company and it was somewhat soft. I am looking forward to renting the same lens from you in about 10 days for comparison.
Roger Cicala ·
We do use OLAF regularly. We can’t make every lens perfect, but we can screen out the unacceptable ones and with a lot of lenses (but not all) adjust them back into spec.
Roger Cicala ·
We do use OLAF regularly. We can't make every lens perfect, but we can screen out the unacceptable ones and with a lot of lenses (but not all) adjust them back into spec.
Irakly Shanidze ·
While being scientifically sound, this blog article does not address factors contributing to the image rendering other than sharpness. Take the same picture with 2/50 Zeiss Planar and Leica Summicron lenses at f/5.6, and images will look different, albeit equally sharp.
Roger Cicala ·
Very good point and one I continually try to make. As in, I’m not a lens reviewer; I just test the MTF. There’s so much more that goes into choosing a lens.
Van Forsman ·
I would love a discussion about how MTF or some other measure is related to other lens rendering qualities!
Roger Cicala ·
Very good point and one I continually try to make. As in, I'm not a lens reviewer; I just test the MTF. There's so much more that goes into choosing a lens.
Veselin Gramatikov ·
Always there are some pople to say: “Photography is art not numbers” in technical discussions. That makes me smile too.
Veselin Gramatikov ·
Always there are some pople to say: "Photography is art not numbers" in technical discussions. That makes me smile too.
whereisaki ·
Thanks, Roger. It’s a treasure to hear from someone who sees lots of lenses instead of a (presumably handpicked) sample sent for review.
What I’ve always wondered is, if an 8-element prime is better than a 19-element zoom, how much of this is the zoom’s optical compromise and how much is quality control? It stands to reason that the more complex the lens is, the more there is to go wrong in assembly.
whereisaki ·
Thanks, Roger. It's a treasure to hear from someone who sees lots of lenses instead of a (presumably handpicked) sample sent for review.
What I've always wondered is, if an 8-element prime is better than a 19-element zoom, how much of this is the zoom's optical compromise and how much is quality control? It stands to reason that the more complex the lens is, the more there is to go wrong in assembly.
cassandra ·
Thanks much for this revealing info. Working for a company which might actually have an incentive to do this, can you say roughly how often lens asymmetries can be corrected by a careful teardown & reassembly? Or where the asymmetries originate (i.e., glass, barrel machining, spacer irregualrity, grit, etc.?)
Roger Cicala ·
cassandra,
I can’t really give you numbers, but all of the above happen. But it’s never just careful reassembly, or almost never. It’s optical adjustment or replacing an out of sorts part, or something. And sometimes we can’t fix them. But just the Lensrentals lenses has 4 guys all of whom spend about half their time doing that.
cassandra ·
Hmm, probably not a thing to try on the kitchen table with visegrips, a Leatherman & ducttape. Oh well.
Roger Cicala ·
cassandra,
I can't really give you numbers, but all of the above happen. But it's never just careful reassembly, or almost never. It's optical adjustment or replacing an out of sorts part, or something. And sometimes we can't fix them. But just Lensrentals has 4 techs who spend about half their time adjusting lenses.
Amilcar Alzaga ·
I just say, I loved the article, and the subliminal messages really kept me going.
Yair ·
Great article!
I am doing in my work measurements
And it is clear most pepole simply don’t know what reality looks like.
keep the excellent work.
Yair ·
Great article!
I am doing in my work measurements
And it is clear most pepole simply don't know what reality looks like.
keep the excellent work.
Matthias Häuptli ·
I wonder how consistent the performance of a single zoom lens is. If you measure the same lens twice, zooming in and out several times in between, will there (typically) be any visible variation in the MTF charts?
Roger Cicala ·
There is a tiny, but detectable difference, about 2% or so, in retesting the same lens. But in the graphs above the difference between colors (blue to light blue; light blue to blue green) is about 10%. So you can’t see that variation at this level of examination.
Plum Pudding ·
I wonder how consistent the performance of a single zoom lens is. If you measure the same lens twice, zooming in and out several times in between, will there (typically) be any visible variation in the MTF charts?
Roger Cicala ·
There is a tiny, but detectable difference, about 2% or so, in retesting the same lens. But in the graphs above the difference between colors (blue to light blue; light blue to blue green) is about 10%. So you can't see that variation at this level of examination.
Bob B. ·
I already knew that primes are better than zooms at the given focal length…but what I did learn here is how to more completely understand MTF charts. Love the way you always back up your discussions with science and lots of stone cold facts!
I ALWAYS learn something here!
Thank you! AGAIN!
Bob B. ·
I already knew that primes are better than zooms at the given focal length...but what I did learn here is how to more completely understand MTF charts. Love the way you always back up your discussions with science and lots of stone cold facts!
I ALWAYS learn something here!
Thank you! AGAIN!
Louie G ·
Love to look at your intuitive maps and to read your blog, even the old texts.
I found an interesting mod here:
https://phillipreeve.net/blog/rangefinder-wide-angle-lenses-on-a7-cameras-problems-and-solutions/#Solution_3_Front_end_filter_mod
Could this be true?!
Brandon Dube ·
It works, I commented on the original FM thread.
Louie G ·
Love to look at your intuitive maps and to read your blog, even the old texts.
I found an interesting mod here:
https://phillipreeve.net/bl...
Could this be true?!
Benz Oberst ·
Roger, have you guys ever considered/tried testing the same lens over its lifespan to see how its optical characteristics hold up?
Roger Cicala ·
Benz, of course, that’s a lot of what we do. Generally they don’t change any at all. Until it’s dropped. But we also sell them at 2 years old, which is way before barrels and cams start wearing out (although we do see that occasionally, and that changes optics too).
Tribune Rickettus ·
Roger, have you guys ever considered/tried testing the same lens over its lifespan to see how its optical characteristics hold up?
Roger Cicala ·
Benz, of course, that's a lot of what we do. Generally they don't change any at all. Until it's dropped. But we also sell them at 2 years old, which is way before barrels and cams start wearing out (although we do see that occasionally, and that changes optics too).
Joe Osborne ·
DON’T PANIC! Say, how about we grab whatever camera/lens combo we have at hand and go take some pics? And, don’t forget your towel…
Roger Cicala ·
I’d have written that, and it would have saved 2,000 words and two dozen pictures. But everyone would have laughed at me.
Joe Osborne ·
DON'T PANIC! Say, how about we grab whatever camera/lens combo we have at hand and go take some pics? And, don't forget your towel...
Roger Cicala ·
I'd have written that, and it would have saved 2,000 words and two dozen pictures. But everyone would have laughed at me.
Impulse_Vigil ·
Don't be such a pessimist... He's just not gonna make photography great again, but we still love the articles. ;)
Ignat Solovey ·
The worst nightmare of a pixel-peeper is actual field photography, he-he.
Ignat “Dyor” Solovey ·
The worst nightmare of a pixel-peeper is actual field photography, he-he.
obican ·
Have you ever done a comparison (MTF and variance) of 10 copies of a single lens, pre-LensRentals adjustment (basically as bought) and post-adjustment?
Roger Cicala ·
Obican, we only adjust the ones that are bad. We of course do MTFs on those to see they are back in spec.
Our rule is ‘if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’. Adjusting an average lens to make it better generally makes it worse and then you spend to hours getting it back to average.
Roger Cicala ·
Obican, we only adjust the ones that are bad. We of course do MTFs on those to see they are back in spec.
Our rule is 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. Adjusting an average lens to make it better generally makes it worse and then you spend to hours getting it back to average.
Ad Veen ·
I threw in my towel at 42…and discovered that MTF charts are superior to bistrometry.
Ad Veen ·
I threw in my towel at 42...and discovered that MTF charts are superior to bistrometry.
Søren Stærke ·
I love the cover photo. Is that the cheapskate-deluxe kit for bird watching? 😛
Søren Stærke ·
I love the cover photo. Is that the cheapskate-deluxe kit for bird watching? :P
0mega ·
I would love to see these graphs for m4/3 lenses – especially the pro zooms, since they’re subjectively almost as sharp in the corners as in the middle.
Brandon Dube ·
You say that, but if some very high end M4/3 are anything to go by it wouldn’t be pretty.
0mega ·
What is that supposed to mean?
Brandon Dube ·
A certain $1600 fast aperture M4/3 prime is the least consistent lens we have ever measured.
0mega ·
Who is ‘we’, what lens is it and why can its properties be extrapolated to other lenses?
Brandon Dube ·
We = Olaf Optical Testing.
I use it to extrapolate because we’ve done very few first-party M4/3 or APS-C lenses. Voigtlander’s MFT lenses are very good, but so are their M mount lenses so that is pretty expected.
This $1600 prime is not that difficult a design, optically – I would assume more complex lenses will be as bad or worse.
0mega ·
Well I would certainly be thankful for scientific results to the lenses I use… Which produce consistently sharp images center to corner even wide open. In fact I sold some of my primes because the zooms are spectacular, imho.
As a deep believer in the scientific method though, more testing would be appreciated. I guess it’s not worth it for you guys due to small target audience, right?
Brandon Dube ·
Such a website requires a lot of software we don’t have. The people who write our software have their hands full with another very large project at the moment. It is possible that we may offer a “semi-open” data access service in the future. (for a fee, you can add access to x number of lenses to your account per month or some other pricing model)
0mega ·
I’m sure that would be tremendously useful. Thanks for the input. I hope you guys create that service soon, imho the market is bigger than you think. Lots of enthusiasts who buy stuff they don’t really need 🙂
0mega ·
Who is 'we', what lens is it and why can its properties be extrapolated to other lenses?
Brandon Dube ·
We = Olaf Optical Testing.
I use it to extrapolate because we've done very few first-party M4/3 or APS-C lenses. Voigtlander's MFT lenses are very good, but so are their M mount lenses so that is pretty expected.
This $1600 prime is not that difficult a design, optically - I would assume more complex lenses will be as bad or worse.
0mega ·
Well I would certainly be thankful for scientific results to the lenses I use... Which produce consistently sharp images center to corner even wide open. In fact I sold some of my primes because the zooms are spectacular, imho.
As a deep believer in the scientific method though, more testing would be appreciated. I guess it's not worth it for you guys due to small target audience, right?
edit: Did it ever cross your mind to crowd fund your incredible lens charts? Put a website up with all lenses available, with a nice paypal button beneath each and every lense. Once a goal of, say, 1500$-3000$ depending on the lens is reached, you do some testing for everyone to enjoy. I'm pretty sure a lot of lenses would be funded pretty quickly. Your results are much more useful than anything by dxo mark or dpreview.
Brandon Dube ·
Such a website requires a lot of software we don't have. The people who write our software have their hands full with another very large project at the moment. It is possible that we may offer a "semi-open" data access service in the future. (for a fee, you can add access to x number of lenses to your account per month or some other pricing model)
0mega ·
I'm sure that would be tremendously useful. Thanks for the input. I hope you guys create that service soon, imho the market is bigger than you think. Lots of enthusiasts who buy stuff they don't really need :)
0mega ·
I would love to see these graphs for m4/3 lenses - especially the pro zooms, since they're subjectively almost as sharp in the corners as in the middle.
Brandon Dube ·
You say that, but if some very high end M4/3 are anything to go by it wouldn't be pretty.
H.G.Schmitt ·
Roger, when you test you’re using “white” light? 😉
Roger Cicala ·
“Photopic light” actually, which is a little different: about 450 to 675 nm wavelengths.
H.G.Schmitt ·
Roger, when you test you're using "white" light? ;-)
Roger Cicala ·
"Photopic light" actually, which is a little different: about 450 to 675 nm wavelengths.
Lee ·
Loving the open contempt in the comments and the piece itself against calls to dumb down the blog for a wider audience.
Joshua Efron ·
Great article Roger! Thank you.
Cassander ·
Great article Roger! Thank you.
Sebastián Santos ·
The “number” controversy is beacuse of DxO score system?? I hate the simplification they do to the products they test into a big number (which in a lot of cases can’t be trusted).
By the way, great article!
Roger Cicala ·
Not just them, but several places that give a single ‘number rating’ to a lens. I understand why they do it — it generates tons of online argument that gets their name repeated over and over. I’m really trying to get people to ignore that and look at their actual testing results which are quite good and useful. I said elsewhere I don’t think the people who actually work at those places would buy a lens on the basis of that number any more than I would. But unfortunately people are treating it like it is the meaning of photography life and ‘upgrading’ from a 76.9 to an 81.4 without any real idea of that those numbers mean. Just that they’re numbers, so they must be real.
Sebastián Santos ·
Totally agree. One thing that happen to me is when you don’t believe in the “overall” score, sometimes is dificult to trust the other measures. Thanks for the answer!
Echo ·
What are your thoughts on DxO’s aberration, distortion, and vignetting correction then? Are those possibly built off one copy?
Would you be more likely to trust DxO, Canon, or Adobe’s aberration & distortion correction?
Sebastián Santos ·
The "number" controversy is because of the DxO score system?? I hate the simplification they do to the products they test into a big number in their website (which in a lot of cases can't be trusted).
By the way, great article!
Roger Cicala ·
Not just them, but several places that give a single 'number rating' to a lens. I understand why they do it -- it generates tons of online argument that gets their name repeated over and over. I'm really trying to get people to ignore that and look at their actual testing results which are quite good and useful. I said elsewhere I don't think the people who actually work at those places would buy a lens on the basis of that number any more than I would. But unfortunately people are treating it like it is the meaning of photography life and 'upgrading' from a 76.9 to an 81.4 without any real idea of that those numbers mean. Just that they're numbers, so they must be real.
Sebastián Santos ·
Totally agree. One thing that happen to me is when you don't believe in the "overall" score, sometimes is dificult to trust the other measures. Thanks for the answer!
Echo ·
What are your thoughts on DxO's aberration, distortion, and vignetting correction then? Are those possibly built off one copy?
Would you be more likely to trust DxO, Canon, or Adobe's aberration & distortion correction?
Van Forsman ·
Been waiting for this one for a while now! Thank you Roger and Aaron! Would you happen to know, or consider seeing how VR/IS/etc. systems affect the complexity and fragility of a lens?
Roger Cicala ·
Van, they have an effect in that they sometimes break, but not much more frequently than aperture assemblies or AF motors. Just one more thing.
Roger Cicala ·
Van, they have an effect in that they sometimes break, but not much more frequently than aperture assemblies or AF motors. Just one more thing.
Richard ·
Thank’s so much Roger for sharing all those data and your insights. Really interesting.
Richard ·
Thank's so much Roger for sharing all those data and your insights. Really interesting.
Page Williamson ·
what would the charts for a 24-70mm Zeiss zoom for the Sony a7RII look like? Have you done mid range zooms?
Roger Cicala ·
Page, they look about like this. Most zooms do.
Roger Cicala ·
Page, they look about like this. Most zooms do.
Page Williamson ·
Roger, thanks. Not the answer I was hoping for but “you da man” with the data.
Page Williamson ·
Roger, thanks. Not the answer I was hoping for but "you da man" with the data.
geographer ix ·
Thanks for this article. I didn’t give this issue much thought so far. What I don’t understand though is how these variations within one lens can occur. You tested eight 2000 $ lenses, so they could as well be Canons 70-200 f2.8 II (which everybody seem to praise to the skies). Can’t the manufactures do anything to minimize these variations within one lens-line? I always thought the production process of these lenses are so sophisticated that noticeable variations in optical quality would be the exception rather than the rule.
Also this article should be shown to all these wannbe-experts on youtube.
Roger Cicala ·
I think there are several things going on. First, they can’t eliminate variation at any price, so complexity will always cause some variation. Second, testing standards are still used that were developed for film and 16 megapixel cameras. According to those standards, these lenses would look fine. They’re only recently starting to change them. Finally, very few people seem to notice. Most folks buy a lens and go ‘well it’s a little softer here, or there’ but that’s probably how they are, and many people don’t use the full zoom range. I’m not sure it’s true, but someone once did an image search for one of the 70-200 zooms and found 65% of all images were taken at 200mm.
Dave New ·
Sounds like a good DFSS (Design For Six Sigma) project. DFSS is especially designed to root out variance in design and manufacturing that even ‘experts’ can’t figure out. It produces some very surprising results sometimes, especially pointing out that just ‘frobbing the knobs’ is not necessarily the way to optimize a design or manufacturing process. Instead, you concentrate on optimizing the ideal energy transfer (in the case of the lens, the ability to transfer the light energy with the least amount of ‘noise’ [meaning unwanted variances], ultimately optimizing the signal-to-noise ratio of the ideal energy transfer function.
geographer ix ·
Thanks for this article. I didn't give this issue much thought so far. What I don't understand though is how these variations within one lens can occur. You tested eight 2000 $ lenses, so they could as well be Canons 70-200 f2.8 II (which everybody seem to praise to the skies). Can't the manufactures do anything to minimize these variations within one lens-line? I always thought the production process of these lenses are so sophisticated that noticeable variations in optical quality would be the exception rather than the rule.
Also this article should be shown to all these wannbe-experts on youtube.
Roger Cicala ·
I think there are several things going on. First, they can't eliminate variation at any price, so complexity will always cause some variation. Second, testing standards are still used that were developed for film and 16 megapixel cameras. According to those standards, these lenses would look fine. They're only recently starting to change them. Finally, very few people seem to notice. Most folks buy a lens and go 'well it's a little softer here, or there' but that's probably how they are, and many people don't use the full zoom range. I'm not sure it's true, but someone once did an image search for one of the 70-200 zooms and found 65% of all images were taken at 200mm.
Dave New ·
Sounds like a good DFSS (Design For Six Sigma) project. DFSS is especially designed to root out variance in design and manufacturing that even 'experts' can't figure out. It produces some very surprising results sometimes, especially pointing out that just 'frobbing the knobs' is not necessarily the way to optimize a design or manufacturing process. Instead, you concentrate on optimizing the ideal energy transfer (in the case of the lens, the ability to transfer the light energy with the least amount of 'noise' [meaning unwanted variances], ultimately optimizing the signal-to-noise ratio of the ideal energy transfer function.
Chirag Parikh ·
which is the lens with least variation in your tests, the Tamron 45mm f/1.8 VC ? or there’s any other lens even better than that ?
Thanks
Roger Cicala ·
It’s a very good lens. I don’t have any data on it since our first set of tests.
Chirag Parikh ·
i read Tamron 45mm f/1.8 VC review by Lens Rentals, which states that it is one of the Lens with least amount of Copy-to-copy Variation, so after that, did you check any other lens better than that at variation scores ?
. . . in less than 18 hours i wish to buy that lens for my Canon 6D. I am not impressed with Canon's 50/1.8 STM (vignetting), or 50/1.4 USM (harsh bokeh), or 50/1.2L (overall dislike), or Sigma 50 Art (focus issues).
Thus i am leaning in favour of tamron.
Transparency or T-stop with tamron 45 isn't that good, as tested by DxO and it also suffers from Chromatic Aberration, and slow AF, but yet i am excited about it. I wish it was f/1.4 but VC compensates for it.
Thanks
Roger Cicala ·
It's a very good lens. I don't have any data on it since our first set of tests.
Sid Phadnis ·
Roger, does your fleet have *any* lenses that are rated 42? If yes, who is the manufacturer? 🙂
Roger Cicala ·
Only my personal lenses.
Sid Phadnis ·
Roger, does your fleet have *any* lenses that are rated 42? If yes, who is the manufacturer? :-)
Madhav Bodas ·
Very informative and enlightening article. However, its depressing to note that the purchase of a lens is like relying on ‘luck’ for the qualitative aspects of it. Also, that despite automation and precision manufacturing, performance of optical gadgets is not repeatable.
It also means that if per chance you get hold of good lens, just hang on to it and never part with it !
Madhav Bodas ·
Very informative and enlightening article. However, its depressing to note that the purchase of a lens is like relying on 'luck' for the qualitative aspects of it. Also, that despite automation and precision manufacturing, performance of optical gadgets is not repeatable.
It also means that if per chance you get hold of good lens, just hang on to it and never part with it !
Terry ·
I get the main point of the testing, but is the main point always true? For example, I have the Nikon 200-500, which is a pretty good zoom and I have an older 400 f2.8. Might the newer zoom beat the older prime lens or even beat a less expensive prime lens. Probably not at all focal lengths, but is that a generally correct or incorrect statement?
Roger Cicala ·
Of course it is! The point is simply that you can’t expect a zoom to be equal at all focal lengths and there will be more copy-to-copy variation than a prime. And generally and equivalent prime will resolve better in the edges than an equivalent zoom. But lots of really good zooms are going to have higher resolution than lower quality primes. Like the examples given above.
Roger Cicala ·
Of course it is! The point is simply that you can't expect a zoom to be equal at all focal lengths and there will be more copy-to-copy variation than a prime. And generally and equivalent prime will resolve better in the edges than an equivalent zoom. But lots of really good zooms are going to have higher resolution than lower quality primes. Like the examples given above.
elkhornsun ·
Quite a broad statement to make. I have shot with the Nikon 14mm f/2.8 and the Nikon 18mm f/2.8 and the Canon 14mm f/2.8 and Canon 24mm f/1.4 and the Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 zoom lens is noticeably sharper than any of these prime lenses when set at the same focal length. The difference was obvious when shooting with a 12MP full frame Nikon DSLR and with a 10MP APS-H Canon DSLR camera. It would be even more apparent with sensors providing much greater resolution image capture.
showmeyourpics ·
Hi, as a former test and quality engineer in military and industrial electronics, I would like to add my 2 cents on the reality of sampling inspection of products. If not disturbed, processes make product within a certain tolerance (normal variation) for any one of their variables. Sampling inspection tries to measure these tolerances by testing a number of units out of a complete production run. A sample of 1 is meaningless because we have no idea where it fits withing the tolerance range. Unfortunately, even larger samples fail to provide a clear picture because processes do not make product swinging diligently from one side of the tolerance range to the other and back. They hang out for a while making product in one place of the tolerance range then move slowly to another and so on making clusters of product with similar “dimensions”. The result is that we are never sure if our sample is truly random and how representative of the entire production run it really is. It is much better if the manufacturer performs a process capability study where samples are drawn from production at regular intervals (i.e.: every hour) and the test results are plotted on an ongoing graph. This approach is not only much more accurate in predicting the real tolerances of the product but also shows that something special is bothering the process if the measurements start running away.
Brandon Dube ·
Unfortunately, electronics and optics are extremely different and the tolerancing and manufacturing do not behave at all the same.
Carleton Foxx ·
Provacative. Explain.
showmeyourpics ·
Hi there, it is not a matter of specific products, it’s a matter of universal behavior of manufacturing processes. This has been exhaustively covered beginning in the mid-1920s with Dr. Walter A. Shewhart development of the fundamentals of statistical process control. William Edwards Deming himself, who initially promoted the use of sampling inspection on which MIL-Std 105 was based, later recognized the invalidity of the underlying statistical principles and moved to recommend either zero or 100% inspection. The 0% inspection is also based on the premise that the manufacturer is doing ongoing process capability studies. Deeper knowledge of the main causes of normal variation in a manufacturing process is achieved through the use of a technique called “design of experiments”.
wondrouslightdotsmugmugdotcom ·
Hi there, it is not a matter of specific products, it's a matter of universal behavior of manufacturing processes. This has been exhaustively covered beginning in the mid-1920s with Dr. Walter A. Shewhart development of the fundamentals of statistical process control. William Edwards Deming himself, who initially promoted the use of sampling inspection on which MIL-Std 105 was based, later recognized the invalidity of the underlying statistical principles and moved to recommend either zero or 100% inspection. The 0% inspection approach is also based on the premise that the manufacturer is doing ongoing process capability studies. Identification of the main causes of normal variation in a manufacturing process is achieved through the use of a technique called "design of experiments".
Patrick Chase ·
I agree that electronics and optics are very different, but you could say the same about just about any pair of product categories or industries you might care to pick. The causes and nature of variations are always unique to some degree, and engineers (including the optical sort) are remarkably good at “drawing distinctions” that make them seem more so.
With that said, the statistics of processes and process control are remarkably universal, and that extends to optical systems. I say this having been intimately involved in all too many production issues where optics were implicated. We missed a LOT of issues by doing sampling inspection, that were fairly easy to find with more modern process control methodologies. A classic example is where you have a batch of ever-so-slight slightly out-of-spec barrels suddenly show up in one bin on the production line.
Brandon Dube ·
What does “out of spec” mean, and how does it influence the image formation? If you decenter the entire optical system with respect to the sensor nearly nothing changes.
Patrick Chase ·
Sure, and that’s an incredibly universal problem in process control.
Overall system behaviors (what the customer cares about) may be very sensitive to some changes and relatively insensitive to others. You gave an example of the latter in the optical domain, but every engineer who’s ever done process control can come up with a litany of similar examples in other domains. Ideally you spec your components in a way that emphasizes parameters that matter, but it isn’t always feasible to do so. You often end up with specs that are “too tight” most of the time but have to be that way to prevent disaster.
It’s also alarmingly common to have cases where two components are out of spec such that they cancel each other out, and introducing a batch of *good* parts to the line breaks the product. Such is life. That’s why companies that manufacture stuff (ideally) employ engineers so sort it all out.
Capability-based controls such as “showmeyourpics” described are useful precisely because they help us detect those cases.
Brandon Dube ·
Ok. But optical tolerances (that is, in terms of the image) follow a root-sum-square relationship. Two decenters, tilts, radii errors, center thickness errors, etc, can only make the image worse, they can never cancel.
Patrick Chase ·
I can think of contrived/degenerate examples where some of those things would at least partially cancel, but for real lenses I think you’re right.
It’s important to recognize that modern lenses and cameras are very complex opto-mechanical systems, where customer-perceived quality is driven by more than just the traditional parameters you cite. Throwing something out completely off the cuff: Could you have offsetting errors between the optical power of a stabilizing group and the gain of the piezo actuators that move it? I realize that such an error in the stabilizing group would impact optical performance of the system formula as a whole, but then you have the question of sensitivity.
Brandon Dube ·
You can match power (focal length). You can’t match power and aberrations. All solutions there are unique enough for any configuration that there are “no” twin solutions.
Patrick Chase ·
This is a fascinating discussion – Thanks!
When we talk about offsetting errors in a production setting we implicitly mean “close enough to not be considered unacceptable”. I recognize that there are no mathematically offsetting aberrations as you describe, but I also think that may not be germane to the topic of real-world process control.
With that said, most of my experiences where errors offset each other (such that introducing “good” parts broke the system) were non-optical, so I absolutely believe that such situations are a lot less common.
Brandon Dube ·
Unless the lens is diffraction limited, and really no consumer lens is, the image quality is governed by only by aberrations. Changing them with decenters and tilts is the entire reason you see what you see in the plots on this blog post.
Patrick Chase ·
I can think of contrived/degenerate examples where some of those things would at least partially cancel, but for real lenses I think you're right.
It's important to recognize that modern lenses and cameras are very complex opto-mechanical systems, where customer-perceived quality is driven by more than just the traditional parameters you cite. Throwing something out completely off the cuff: Could you have offsetting errors between the optical power of a stabilizing group and the gain of the piezo actuators that move it? I realize that such an error in the stabilizing group would impact optical performance of the optical formula as a whole, but then you have the question of sensitivity.
Brandon Dube ·
You can match power (focal length). You can't match power and aberrations. All solutions there are unique enough for any configuration that there are "no" twin solutions.
Patrick Chase ·
This is a fascinating discussion - Thanks!
When we talk about offsetting errors in a production setting we implicitly mean "close enough to not be considered unacceptable". I recognize that there are no mathematically offsetting aberrations as you describe, but I also think that may not be germane to the topic of real-world process control.
With that said, most of my experiences where errors offset each other (such that introducing "good" parts broke the system) were non-optical, so I absolutely believe that such situations are a lot less common.
Patrick Chase ·
I agree that electronics and optics are very different, but you could say the same about just about any pair of product categories or industries you might care to pick. The causes and nature of variations are always unique to some degree, and engineers (including the optical sort) are remarkably good at "drawing distinctions" that make them seem more so.
With that said, the statistics of processes and process control are remarkably universal, and that extends to optical systems. I say this having been intimately involved in all too many production issues where optics were implicated. We missed a LOT of issues by doing sampling inspection, that were fairly easy to find with more modern process control methodologies. A classic example is where you have a batch of ever-so-slight slightly out-of-spec barrels suddenly show up in one bin on the production line.
Brandon Dube ·
What does "out of spec" mean, and how does it influence the image formation? If you decenter the entire optical system with respect to the sensor nearly nothing changes.
Patrick Chase ·
Sure, and that's an incredibly universal problem in process control.
Overall system behaviors (what the customer cares about) may be very sensitive to some changes and relatively insensitive to others. You gave an example of the latter in the optical domain, but every engineer who's ever done process control can come up with a litany of similar examples in other domains. Ideally you spec your components in a way that emphasizes parameters that matter, but it isn't always feasible to do so. You often end up with specs that are "too tight" most of the time but have to be that way to prevent disaster.
It's also alarmingly common to have cases where two components are out of spec such that they cancel each other out, and introducing a batch of *good* parts to the line breaks the product. Such is life. That's why companies that manufacture stuff (ideally) employ engineers so sort it all out.
Capability-based controls such as "showmeyourpics" described are useful precisely because they help us detect those cases.
wondrouslightdotsmugmugdotcom ·
Hi, as a former test and quality engineer in military and industrial electronics, I would like to add my 2 cents on the reality of sampling inspection of products. If not disturbed, processes make product within a certain tolerance (normal variation) for any one of their variables. Sampling inspection tries to measure these tolerances by testing a number of units out of a complete production run. A sample of 1 is meaningless because we have no idea where it fits withing the tolerance range. Unfortunately, even larger samples fail to provide a clear picture because processes do not make product swinging diligently from one side of the tolerance range to the other and back. They hang out for a while making product in one place of the tolerance range then move slowly to another and so on making clusters of product with similar "dimensions". The result is that we are never sure if our sample is truly random and how representative of the entire production run it really is. It is much better if the manufacturer performs a process capability study where samples are drawn from production at regular intervals (i.e.: every hour) and the test results are plotted on an ongoing graph. This approach is not only much more accurate in predicting the real tolerances of the product but also shows that something special is bothering the process if the measurements start running away.
Kevin Shorter ·
It’s all governed by the Gods of baseball. Take the absolute best player at each position. Take the absolute best 8 utility players (pitchers don’t count here). Test the skills of all. What do you have, primes and zooms. All are very good … but under high scrutiny, pretty easy to see the difference!
Kevin Shorter ·
It's all governed by the Gods of baseball. Take the absolute best player at each position. Take the absolute best 8 utility players (pitchers don't count here). Test the skills of all. What do you have, primes and zooms. All are very good ... but under high scrutiny, pretty easy to see the difference!
Beaverman33 ·
This is a really interesting piece Roger and ties in a little bit to a review that I’ve just done on the Sigma 24-35mm F2.0 DG HSM Art zoom lens, and I’ve got to say that I’m very impressed with it. It’s a lens that quite a few people aren’t aware of and those that do know about it usually always ask the same question . . . is it as good as the equivalent prime lenses? Being aIso also have the Sigma 24mm and 35mm f1.4 Art primes I could try to find out.
This is by no means as through or scientific a review as you guys do but more coming at it from a real world usage point of view . . .
http://simonbrettellphotography.co.uk/sigma-24-35mm-f2-0-dg-hsm-art-lens-review/
Roger Cicala ·
That’s a great review and a great read. And a good example of what I’m trying to say: several real world reviews by several dedicated reviewers give the information people need most when they’re considering a new lens. That’s always been part of the pleasure of the selection process for me. I don’t understand why people want to go ‘it’s a 72.4, it’s got to be good!’
Beaverman33 ·
Thanks for the kind words Roger, it’s much appreciated! I think part of the problem is that people obsess over the numbers too much. In reality, in real world shooting conditions under normal image usage 99% of photographers or their clients would not be able to tell the difference between a Canon 85mm f1.8 and a Sigma 85mm f1.4 if they were both shot at f2.0. But I love nerding out over the details more than most!!!
PhotoSimon ·
This is a really interesting piece Roger and ties in a little bit to a review that I've just done on the Sigma 24-35mm F2.0 DG HSM Art zoom lens, and I've got to say that I'm very impressed with it. It's a lens that quite a few people aren't aware of and those that do know about it usually always ask the same question . . . is it as good as the equivalent prime lenses? Being aIso also have the Sigma 24mm and 35mm f1.4 Art primes I could try to find out.
This is by no means as through or scientific a review as you guys do but more coming at it from a real world usage point of view . . .
http://simonbrettellphotogr...
Roger Cicala ·
That's a great review and a great read. And a good example of what I'm trying to say: several real world reviews by several dedicated reviewers give the information people need most when they're considering a new lens. That's always been part of the pleasure of the selection process for me. I don't understand why people want to go 'it's a 72.4, it's got to be good!'
PhotoSimon ·
Thanks for the kind words Roger, it's much appreciated! I think part of the problem is that people obsess over the numbers too much. In reality, in real world shooting conditions under normal image usage 99% of photographers or their clients would not be able to tell the difference between a Canon 85mm f1.8 and a Sigma 85mm f1.4 if they were both shot at f2.0. But I love nerding out over the details more than most!!!
Tord55 ·
As always, a delightful read! This last year I’ve bought a Sigma 150-600 Sports, and the wife a PL100-400, giving us roughly the same reach, as I use a D3300, and she a GX8.
But mine feels utterly sharp, not least in the long end, hers feel not so outstanding. But is that due to normal variation, or did she get a bad copy? Is there any way to find out, some test an average you can take?!
Roger Cicala ·
The only way I know with any accuracy is to find a friend with the same lens and do a comparison. It’s not absolute, but at least you get another set of data points. You may get some hints asking several lens owners on forums. There are a number of zooms, for example, that soften at the long end a bit.
Tord55 ·
Have found that it behaves better at f/7.1, a small step forward, anyway!
Tord55 ·
As always, a delightful read! This last year I've bought a Sigma 150-600 Sports, and the wife a PL100-400, giving us roughly the same reach, as I use a D3300, and she a GX8.
But mine feels utterly sharp, not least in the long end, hers feel not so outstanding. But is that due to normal variation, or did she get a bad copy? Is there any way to find out, some test an average you can take?!
Roger Cicala ·
The only way I know with any accuracy is to find a friend with the same lens and do a comparison. It's not absolute, but at least you get another set of data points. You may get some hints asking several lens owners on forums. There are a number of zooms, for example, that soften at the long end a bit.
Jake Richards-Hegnauer ·
I really enjoyed this post. Thank you for the “map of the sagittal MTF with blue showing where the lens is sharpest” this really helped when we got to comparing, and wow, the results of the “Primelike*” 70-200mm zoom are a true eye opener.
(yes I am VERY guilty of describing certain zooms as “primelike”)
I am sure I will be linking to this post many times a month from our forum!
Jake AKA CyberDyneSystems
Jake Richards-Hegnauer ·
I really enjoyed this post. Thank you for the "map of the sagittal MTF with blue showing where the lens is sharpest" this really helped when we got to comparing, and wow, the results of the "Primelike*" 70-200mm zoom are a true eye opener.
(yes I am VERY guilty of describing certain zooms as "primelike")
I am sure I will be linking to this post many times a month from our forum!
Jake AKA CyberDyneSystems
Lo-Wok Li Ya ·
Roger, HUGE thanks for the brilliant scientific and still funny article!
I laughed out loud maybe thrice:-)
Your fighting against the editors, blog restrictions and silly one-number-users gives very compelling reading perspective.
Please keep your own style and forget about little haters!
Lo-Wok Li Ya ·
Roger, HUGE thanks for the brilliant scientific and still funny article!
I laughed out loud maybe thrice:-)
Your fighting against the editors, blog restrictions and silly one-number-users gives very compelling reading perspective.
Please keep your own style and forget about little haters!
Rupert ·
Roger, I have just read through all the comments, you guys must have the patience of saints!…
In regard to the numbers without meaning, you missed one: 1.41421356
oh wait… that number DOES have meaning, you were right to leave it out.
Rupert ·
Roger, I have just read through all the comments, you guys must have the patience of saints!...
In regard to the numbers without meaning, you missed one: 1.41421356
oh wait... that number DOES have meaning, you were right to leave it out.
Giulio Dallatorre ·
can we see an Otus chart compared to a tourist superzoom lens chart? that would be true measurebatable
Nicholas Olsen ·
I dropped my Zeiss 135mm ZF.2 lens onto concrete but it didn’t appear to cause any damage (other than shattering the protection filter) – from your experience with drops, how noticeable of a change does it make. I’m assuming it was the lens in this article in the second row, third column that was dropped?
Nicholas Olsen ·
I dropped my Zeiss 135mm ZF.2 lens onto concrete but it didn't appear to cause any damage (other than shattering the protection filter) - from your experience with drops, how noticeable of a change does it make. I'm assuming it was the lens in this article in the second row, third column that was dropped?
Archieman ·
I have spent many hours photographing test charts, my best test chart photo was taken in the Siberian wilderness.
The weather was not a problem although I estimated a wind chill equivalent temperature of absolute zero.
I am planning a test chart testing trip to Death Valley this summer.
Archieman ·
I have spent many hours photographing test charts, my best test chart photo was taken in the Siberian wilderness.
The weather was not a problem although I estimated a wind chill equivalent temperature of absolute zero.
I am planning a test chart testing trip to Death Valley this summer.
Tord55 ·
I had the Sigma 35/1.4 Art, and while it was utterly sharp I never got on with it, Now I have the Sigma 30/1.4 DC HSM Art, and that lens is in my mind so much better, even on a FX body! Minute vignetting I can live with, but that 35 was definitely not for me!
Have a great day, Roger!
Tord55 ·
I had the Sigma 35/1.4 Art, and while it was utterly sharp I never got on with it, Now I have the Sigma 30/1.4 DC HSM Art, and that lens is in my mind so much better, even on a FX body! Minute vignetting I can live with, but that 35 was definitely not for me!
Have a great day, Roger!
tom rose ·
Great article. You must HATE DxO and the drivel that they publish!
Robin ·
Hi Roger,
I read your article and your other articles about decentering and tilted lens element. I have a Tokina 11-20 and I notice that the left side of the frame (starting slightly beyond the rules of third area) displays more astigmatism and is a little front focused compared to the right side. This is more apparent towards infinity and disappears as I stop down (to f/5.6 at 11mm or f/6.3-7.1 at 16mm; left and right side are about comparable at 20mm even at f/2.8) or if I zoom out to 50% (I am using a D7200).
So with the knowledge that most zoom lens are flawed, should I even try to get the lens serviced? I have visited the Tokina service centre with some photos and they claim nothing is wrong with my lens.
I am considering visiting a 3rd party service centre. But I was wondering, are such ‘small’ decentering/tilting isuses easily correctable? Or it must be really major before it can be fixed? From your experience, are the Tokina 11-16/11-20 easy to service (e.g. there is an adjusting element) or does the entire lens have to be rebuilt? Thank you!
Robin ·
Hi Roger,
I read your article and your other articles about decentering and tilted lens element. I have a Tokina 11-20 and I notice that the left side of the frame (starting slightly beyond the rules of third area) displays more astigmatism and is a little front focused compared to the right side. This is more apparent towards infinity and disappears as I stop down (to f/5.6 at 11mm or f/6.3-7.1 at 16mm; left and right side are about comparable at 20mm even at f/2.8) or if I zoom out to 50% (I am using a D7200).
So with the knowledge that most zoom lens are flawed, should I even try to get the lens serviced? I have visited the Tokina service centre with some photos and they claim nothing is wrong with my lens.
I am considering visiting a 3rd party service centre. But I was wondering, are such 'small' decentering/tilting isuses easily correctable? Or it must be really major before it can be fixed? From your experience, are the Tokina 11-16/11-20 easy to service (e.g. there is an adjusting element) or does the entire lens have to be rebuilt? Thank you!
Richard Kev ·
So, my belief that primes are better has a reasonable and measurable basis, but my dislike of zooms is actually irrational.
I can accept that.
Richard Kev ·
So, my belief that primes are better has a reasonable and measurable basis, but my dislike of zooms is actually irrational.
I can accept that.
Michael Clark ·
” (If we weren’t going to do science, I’d just say this one rates 82.7 and this one 79.2 using our special rating system you can’t understand, and the article could be really short like our editors want. Editors hate me pretty much).”
Roger, did you write that final sentence? Or was it added by an editor?
Michael Clark ·
" (If we weren’t going to do science, I’d just say this one rates 82.7 and this one 79.2 using our special rating system you can’t understand, and the article could be really short like our editors want. Editors hate me pretty much)."
Roger, did you write that final sentence? Or was it added by an editor?
Mako ·
It shows why our Fujinon motion picture zooms cost $90,000! Much tighter quality control, sturdy mechanicals, excellent centering … both mechanically and optically … and an attempt to reduce breathing while Follow Focusing and/or Zooming.
Mako ·
It shows why our Fujinon motion picture zooms cost $90,000! Much tighter quality control, sturdy mechanicals, excellent centering ... both mechanically and optically ... and an attempt to reduce breathing while Follow Focusing and/or Zooming.
Curtis Patterson ·
Thank you Roger. Even today, the heated arguments of “my 21 element $3000 zoom is by far better than your 8 element $1000 prime” ensue all over the internet, and I hope for the sake of everyone, they read this article. I am (and will be) sharing this article often. By the way I enjoy your sense of humor 🙂
Curtis Patterson ·
Thank you Roger. Even today, the heated arguments of "my 21 element $3000 zoom is by far better than your 8 element $1000 prime" ensue all over the internet, and I hope for the sake of everyone, they read this article. I am (and will be) sharing this article often. By the way I enjoy your sense of humor :)